Migration Moving from 0370 to 0870 NGN Numbers.
We are business users of NGN 0870, and forgive us, 07000 numbers, too. We are trying and failing to migrate to a 0370 number. And get rid of our 07000 numbers too.

This is a story of hassles and general headache, yet it's something we needed to do, yet had we known, frankly, we'd never have started it.

Eleven months later we still have not been able to achieve a successful migration of our 0870 number to 0370.

Our 0370 moniker on this forum, is  to date  mere, wishful thinking.

I'm going to put this up, for the 0870 naysayers, and yes, we do see the issues, we're not fans eitehr. But, more  for the business users, like us, that have to deal with far more than  a few gripes, 'cos believe us, so far, the Telcos have taken more from us, than we care to think about.

Let us start by saying we have never made one cent from revenue share on any 0870 number. To get what has to be just about the cleanest 0870 number around,  , we had to forego this. We wanted a smooth good-as-it-gets number., and we think we have it. We want to keep it, and it was never about the revenue, although it would have been nice, we wanted a clean memorable number, and our  provider took any revenue as a condition of supply. I'll repeat, not one cent have we had in revenue-share to it. We paid far more to get this, than we were ever going to get  back in revenue, so it was not about revenue share.

Most companies have responded to the 0870 debacle by slowly introducing   a completely new number, but for us, because it is 'that' number, we wanted to keep it. It's a bit special we think. We'd heard that we can migrate to an 0370 equivalent and foolishly thought, all we had to do was notify our Telco and all would be well.

========================================

Ofcom says:

1.1          034 & 037 Migration Order
1.1.1     Following the introduction and implementation of 03 UK wide numbers, end users of 084x and 087x numbers have the right to migrate away from these numbers to the “matching” 034x/037x numbers. If the 084x or 087x number has been exported, the Gaining Communications Provider (the end users Current CP) should approach the Range Holder of the equivalent 034x/037x number and request the export of the matching 03 number by sending a provide order. On receipt of the provide order the Range Holder will validate the order by checking that they have the equivalent 084x/087x number on export to the CP that has originated the request. This is the only validation required, as there is no end-user data to validate.
1.1.2     If the order is validated successfully the Range Holder will bring that number into service on their network and then export the number.

========================================

Not quite as easy as ofcom would have us think. And it took months to source the above info.

If like us, your 087x number over time, gets moved away from the rangeholder, at every hop away,  you're one more stage form simplicity. Often this happens without your knowledge. And it will pile on the hassle. Throw in resellers that will obstruct your moving of the  number, add in some corporate structure that seems to conspire to not act and you have a cocktail of reasons not to get a simple migration.

This could turn into a rant.... I think it already has.

First you need to understand Telco jargon, and with NGNs you have a Rangeholder. The rangeholder in our case , like most, a big corporate. Essentially the rangeholder is the core supplier that gets the number allocation originally from Ofcom. They hold the 0870 and thus get allocated its equivalent 0370. You are locked to them.

Our 0870 number was originally purchased and then rented from a reseller,  now most resellers have  no equipment themselves, and ours did not, so it sat on the rangeholder's 'switch'. Had it stayed that way I think it would have been easy.

Unfortunately the reseller,   ported the number out to another supplier   , without telling us, making us yet one more hop away from the rangeholder. So now we are two steps away from the rangeholder, and getting our 0370. But essentially we are still supplied by the reseller. This we understand is common practice.

Our reseller was unwilling to allow migration to 0370, because of the hassle and to some extent the loss of revenue share they were getting. This locked us in.

We were at a point where most companies give up their 087x to 0370 migration path, and get a completely new number. For us, we still wanted our   number. But to move away from the reseller makes the situation, one stage worse.

Obstructing the migration, and with heavy charges also, we bit teh bullet, made the decision to get away from our original reseller. They would obstruct  migration remember. But this then puts, yet another step way from the rangeholder, We  changed our reseller anyway. This stage alone took 6 months and Ofcom involvement to allow the porting away from the first resellers switch. We've managed to get rid of one obstacle, the first reseller ,and now have our 0870 on a new porting, but the rangeholder, for whom, we've never had direct  commercial agreement with, refuses to release the 0370 because if it.

We are getting there. And all we wanted was a  nice clean number with a some nice back-office call routing features to make calls easier for us and our custoemrs.

Be warned. For us anyway it has not been easy.

I see in the case you cite there was with only two telcos, for us, we now have five. Competition has to be allowed, but the sub-allocation it allows, creates a complexity of a magnitude, few would believe.

===================================
Note: requesting an 0370 prefix will have the port request declined by the rangeholder, if your CP does not send it as a tied request. ie tied to the 084x/087x  number you now possess. Ofcom has allocated these ranges, 037x & 034x only for prior users of teh resepctive 084x and 087x numbers. This snippet alone, had we known it - even our CP didn't, would have saved us two months hassle.


It took us months to find this and get clarity. When you don't know something even exists and ofcom despite numerous calls doesn't tell you, and you don't know to ask, you're stumped. So for you, only  'cos I like you,  ofcom doc: NGNPE2E version 13 (at present) page 26.

Non-Geographic Number Portability


End-to-End Process Manual


Version 13


http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A... page 26-27

Then,

All parties concerned can only give one of two objections to a successful port.
These are:

1. The end-user does not have the existing 087x equivalent in port. (We assume you do)
2. The rangeholder does not have the 037x number as part of their number-block allocation. (they have not applied to ofcom for it yet)

Having got that, tehn you can claim your 037x/034x migration. getting it is anotehr story. One for us, with our last port request declined, for reasons we're still not sure of, yet to have a happy ending.

===================================

We were never fans of the telcos, and this experience only reinforces our veiw, but our hands are tied.

10-12 years ago we were using 07000 which was worse. Again we took no revenue from 07000. There was no revenue share on them anyway.

Of course we got a complex switch in return, but all we were actually doing was making our product more expensive to our custoemrs and feeding a telco. 0870 only slightly improved the situation, but as we said, in our case, we saw no revenue share, even when you could get it.

Like this site, we're no freinds of the telcos, we see them as necessary evil.

The less we say about our reseller the better.  We'll keep you posted.

Whilst we need a regualtor, the 'government money' uses to run that bloated quango, is our money. Never forget, teh government has no money, only 'our money', and I'll bet ofcom alone costs us more of 'our money' than it has ever saved. As a 'make-work' scheme we pay for, Ofcom is good for Ofcom, i'm not so sure it's quite so good for us.

Our next point few will like...

SayNoto0870, dare we say, (as a premise) is to some extent flawed. And I know we're going to cause a fuss here.

You see, NGNs are used by business. To call a business you are caling a building somewhere, with staff to pay.

They need lunch breaks, coffee, maternity leave, holiday pay, natioanal insurance, payroll, employer contribution, sick pay, health & safety, and lest we forget Business rates, rent, heating, plant, stock, maintenance, cleaning for teh building you are calling. The list goes on.

In no way does the cost of any call at 0870 rates pay for the person you are expecting to answer you call, yet a business must do so somehow. In soem ways a premium rate call introduces the reality check needed by some callers to the real cost of all this. Often its teh same customers taht would demand the very best sevice, that would carp the most about the cost of any call.

A business has to make money somewhere, and profit may be a dirty word, but without it, not much around you would exist. No profit is No taxes. If a premium rate call was standard to  all business, it would introduce a level playing field and be part of a reality very much needed in our country.

That's a bit of a leap, OK a vast leap, but bear with us...

For too long we've let our politiicians borrow money to keep us sweet and them in power, thus the country has been living on borrowed money. It has fed the public sector, and our elite, from a private sector with things it can't afford. The public in general in the next few years is going to have to get used to paying for something right now, instead of voting for politicans tthat just borrow it. Because sooner or later, as is happening as we speak, you run out of other people's money. Lots voted for it - now, it's pay-up time.

I admire the premise of SayNOto0870, yet someone has to pay, somewhere. If it's not to be the caller to that business, whom tehn? Why is the business there? Often people calling businesses need to be aware, 'that' is what they are doing. Dirty we know, but profit is jobs and taxes.

That is an over simplified argument, I'll say that again,  over simplified, a premium rate to all business, wouldn't work in all cases, but come on...

We can't keep expectign the person paying to be someone else. It's gotta be you. A hard reality we are about to face.

We politely, suggest you rename this site,

SayYESSSSSSto0870bringiton.com

or

SayYESSSSSSto0870it'saStupendouslyBrilliantIdea.com



OK, we'll standby, thr

03700000000

Before the rotten eggs arrive, I will offer a comment from one who is largely supportive of your general position. (Others were at fault in your migration, but I am pleased to read you seeming to confirm my view that the reseller was the primary villain in this case.)


The point about "Business Rate" numbers, the 084's and 087's, as opposed to the "Premium Rate" 09's, is that the "Service Charge" is rarely more than a modest subsidy towards the cost of providing the call centre service.

If a customer was paying the full cost of having their complaint or enquiry investigated and resolved, then this would be a different matter. There is a ready mechanism available for raising a charge when contact is made by telephone, although not by letter or email. Perhaps there should be premium rate email and postal addresses to provide subsidy to the respective contact centres!


I am fully in favour of the Ofcom proposal for "Business Rate" numbers to be retained, but with the "Service Charge" to the benefit of the party called and the "Access Charge" to the benefit of the caller's telco openly declared.

If a GP wishes to raise a charge for booking an appointment by telephone, or a business for making a complaint or enquiry, then let them explain the fact that they are doing so and give the reasons for it. (The GP would of course have to opt out from the NHS to do this.)


It is my belief that, faced with the requirement to accept direct responsibility for the imposition of a charge that provides a modest cost subsidy, many users would withdraw from using "Business Rate" numbers. (Migration to 03 will be one of the obvious options available to them.)

They will, of course, be compelled to fill the financial gap in other ways. Some may wish, as you suggest, to migrate to true "Premium Rate" numbers, so that the caller is meeting the full cost of the service they are accessing.


I see it as vital that the truth of the situation be fully understood. The truth is often uncomfortable and frequently accompanied by the hurling of rotten foodstuffs.


Just for the record:

- Much of Ofcom's funding is from levies on those whom it regulates. (I do not have the detail - it is complex.)

- The other case I mentioned is discussed at great length in this thread (the migration was completed on 1 Dec 2008).

I love it, i've got to quote you:



I'm done on here for today.  Off for a bite.  I'm after a Free Lunch...

Barbara,

I could not agree more, especially when it comes to the NHS/Dr's Surgeries! 

With reference to 037xx's post/company (I cannot be bothered to keep typing it sorry) I have no personal need to use the company, and therefore call the 0870/0370 number, but I do appreciate your points.

I would rather pay a set cost for a product or service and then pay NO extra for the call, via a standard rate number.

If the business I call decides to have routing features, or an IVR menu then they can take that cost of their profits! Not out of my phone bill.

You will in fairness look at it from a business point of view, but I have family who have a business and they function fine with a standard 01 number.

I will give you one simple example of a BAD consumer way to run a business - Dell UK, they charge a fortune for the warranty, use ONLY 0844 numbers (which are a "premium" cost) and outsource their support to India!

Dell US on the other hand provides a TOLL FREE 1-877 number for it's support! (Similar to a UK 0800 number)

Welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM 03700000000.

The site has been around for a number of years and has grown in popularity, I believe, primarily due to its database of alternative numbers.

I joined the forum because I had noticed that previously designated "local rate" and "national rate" (0845 and 0870 respectively) were becoming premium rate on more and more tariffs. As a matter of principle, I considered it abhorrent that these designations made less than a decade before were breaking down, particularly as they imply "normal" rate.

Since then, I have come to learn that the designations only ever had meaning with respect to the call rates charged by the incumbent call provider, BT. In practice other providers would charge more because they are not constrained on their level of "Access Charge" (the amount they add on for originating the call, and that is what has happened.

Despite this, there is a distinct lack of appreciation amongst service providers (number users) and their customers that the numbers are a means of imposing a charge on customers. It is this which I feel is at the heart of the matter.

Thus, from my point of view, SAYNOTO0870.COM has two purposes:

1. Oppose the absence of any declaration that number users benefit

*

through use of numbers.

You could liken not being open about this fact to like not having pricing labels on the shelves that hold the goods in shops. The fact that there are prices on shelves means that there is pressure on retailers to reduce prices (price competition) so that customers know how much items cost and therefore base their decision to purchase on this (as well as other factors of course).

2. Avoid the charges associated with Business Rate numbers.

There will always be a tendency in any given market for consumers to try and reduce the price they pay. Whilst many probably see the SAYNOTO0870.COM database of alternative numbers to be the way of avoiding the charges associated with ringing their banks or insurance companies, this is certainly not my main motivation for participating in its administration.

I am concerned and recognise that the widespread use of Business Rate numbers (or "covert premium rate" numbers as some call them) has come about due to issue Number 1.



I do not believe that all companies should stop using these or that they all should stop using them for particular purposes. My concern is over the sheer numbers (of numbers) in use - nearly all companies, particularly in certain types, use them.

This could be likened to providers in a free market which are all vying to dominate the market, at the expense of others. Competition is good for consumers, but if one provider has too much of a dominant position, it is bad for consumers.

Use of Business Rate numbers is so great with providers in many markets that there is little choice but to purchase services from those that use them. For this reason, I support the notion of a database of alternative numbers as a way of fighting back.


I believe that part of the campaign is about the recognition that Business Rate numbers provide benefit to their users and that this is controlled by the selection of number prefix and nothing else (such as whether there are direct payments or not).

I have never believed that the Say No campaign to be about the eradication of non-geographic numbers. Indeed, prior to the introduction of 03 numbers in 2007, it was quite clear to me that what we needed was a non-geographic number range that cost the same as geographic calls (and formed part of inclusive minutes on the same basis).


It must also be recognised that Business Rate numbers are a very inefficient method of charging customers, particularly those who make contact through mobile phones. The benefit on 0844 numbers is around 5 pence per minute, yet customers are charged up to 41 pence per minute.

In short, of course most buinesses don't like the situation either. Call revenue only gets interestign for a business when you're running vast call centres, or you're dealing in millions of minutes. Even if you are, the telcos still take the lion's share.

Had we been able to take revenue, in our case, we'd still have taken mere scraps from the table.

Ultimately the issue is of cost transparency and the telco industry propagates confusiion on this.

We used to advertise our 07000 number as natioanl rate - whatever that meant, we didn't really know ourselves, largely becuase we could not really say what callers were to be paying. And as an 07000, we didn't get the revenue anyway. Nothing much has changed, it is still confusing for most.

The telcos will conspire as they do now, to be sure change won't happen.

I'm afraid, the genie is out of the bottle.

And you'll not educate the average consumer becuase of this propogated confusion.

The telcos have won. Game, Set & Match.