SAYNOTO0870.COM - BBC still calling 0845 "local rate"!

loddon

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Re: BBC still calling 0845 "local rate"!
Reply #15 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 8:49am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

[quote author=NGMsGhost link=1348743194/4#4 date=1352129553]Ofcom has, finally and far too late, decided to take on the job of simplifying non-geographic numbers and will have to come up with some simple and memorable terms to describe the various categories.

The question is - will Ofcom succeed?

The answer is NO, Ofcom will not succeed. The current Ofcom thinking, as you SCV have indicated elsewhere, is to call 084/7 numbers "business rate" and to impose/allow a two component pricing structure for these numbers. These components, as curently proposed by Ofcom, are named "Access Charge" and "Service charge". Cry

This is NOT simplification, it is complication and will undoubtedly allow the industry scope to cause even more confusion and bafflement to callers when they are introduced.

The Ofcom suggested wording (2012 version) to which you have provided a link states "For these numbers, the total cost is made up of an access charge that goes to your phone company PLUS a charge that goes to the organisation receiving the call." and "The charge for these numbers will be no morethan 7p per minutefor 084 numbers and 13p per minute for 087 numbers PLUS your phone company's standard access charge." These kind of statements illustrate the confusion and duplicity in Ofcom's own thinking. They are now inventing a new concept of "standard access charge" which does not currently exist and will give BT and all the others further scope to confuse their customers. This Ofcom confusion and complexity is caused by their refusal to relinquish the idea and practice of charging the cost of 084/7 calls to callers instead of charging the organisations using and benefitting from these numbers. This concept is clearly unfair to callers and should be abandoned.

If I may say, I think your Fair Telecoms Campaign should be opposing these Ofcom proposals and pressing for a real simplification in numbering and charging.

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« Last Edit: Nov 9^th, 2012 at 9:41am by loddon »

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Dave

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Re: BBC still calling 0845 "local rate"!
Reply #16 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 1:34pm

loddon wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 8:49am:

The answer is NO, Ofcom will not succeed. The current Ofcom thinking, as you SCV have indicated elsewhere, is to call 084/7 numbers "business rate" and to impose/allow a two component pricing structure for these numbers. These components, as curently proposed by Ofcom, are named "Access Charge" and "Service charge". Cry

This is NOT simplification, it is complication and will undoubtedly allow the industry scope to cause even more confusion and bafflement to callers when they are introduced.

The Ofcom suggested wording (2012 version) to which you have provided a link states "For these numbers, the total cost is made up of an access charge that goes to your phone company PLUS a charge that goes to the organisation receiving the call." and "The charge for these numbers will be no morethan 7p per minutefor 084 numbers and 13p per minute for 087 numbers PLUS your phone company's standard access charge." These kind of statements illustrate the confusion and duplicity in Ofcom's own thinking. They are now inventing a new concept of "standard access charge" which does not currently exist and will give BT and all the others further scope to confuse their customers. This Ofcom confusion and complexity is caused by their refusal to relinquish the idea and practice of charging the cost of 084/7 calls to callers instead of charging the organisations using and benefitting from these numbers. This concept is clearly unfair to callers and should be abandoned.

If I may say, I think your Fair Telecoms Campaign should be opposing these Ofcom proposals and pressing for a real simplification in numbering and charging.

The name "Business Rate" did not appear in Ofcom's latest consultation so it appears that it has been dropped.

The separate Access Charge and Service Charge elements are simply the unbundling of the charges as they are now. We can put forward different suggestions of what the names of these two charges should be, but the fact is that they exist where the receiving party derives benefit.

Even if 084/087 numbers were to be either abolished or have their Service Charges removed and brought in line with geographic call charges, then there would still need to be a system of pricing 09 Premium Rate Service numbers.

The point is that in a free market, providers must be allowed to vary and set their prices. If only a single communications provider existed, then only its call rates would need to be quoted and there would perhaps be no need to indicate the benefit to the receiving party because it would be clear to see by comparing a normal call rate and premium call rate. For example, if a geographic call cost 5 pence per minute and a particular 09 number cost 25 pence per minute, then the premium would be 20 pence per minute.

It could also be said that many different tariffs and packages cause confusion, but likewise that is an expected outcome of the multi-provider system we have. The same is true in any area, whether it be telecommunications, energy, insurance or whatever.

Perhaps those who don't support the Unbundled Tariff could highlight the part in their response to the Ofcom consultation where they outlined what they would do instead.

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« Last Edit: Nov 9^th, 2012 at 1:37pm by Dave »

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loddon

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Re: BBC still calling 0845 "local rate"!
Reply #17 - Nov 11^th, 2012 at 6:20pm

In response to your points, Dave :---

I wonder why the term “business rate” has been dropped? Probably as a result of lobbying by the industry which doesn't want it described more closely for what it is.

The “unbundling” of charges in the way that Ofcom proposes is hardly simplification and does not reduce the harm to callers. I am surprised that you seem to favour this aspect of Ofcom's proposals. Take note of what Antelope Consulting say about this.

I have not commented on 09 numbers and they seem to be way outside the scope of this thread.

I agree “that in a free market providers must be allowed to vary and set their prices”. However, competitors should be required to operate within bounds set by the regulator and the regulator should ensure that the rules are clear and simple enough to allow callers/customers to understand the market without being scammed or bamboozled. It is interesting to see that the energy regulator is currently addressing, belatedly, the issue of the multitude and complexity of confusing tariffs in that industry which has only six major suppliers so I see no reason why Ofcom cannot act similarly. The requirement of true simplification would not imply a reversion to a single supplier and should enable sharper and more beneficial competition to take place.

I am content to see “different tariffs and packages” from competing suppliers and would welcome a framework of regulations which allow healthy competition without suppliers being licensed for ripping-off the consumer.

I am pleased to respond to your invitation to highlight relevant parts of previous responses to Ofcom's consultation on this topic with the following extracts :---

“An easy way for Ofcom to protect the interests of the public would be to stipulate that the call charges for use of 084 and 087 numbers must be charged to the user Organisations and not to callers, in a similar way to the operation of 03 numbers. Callers should still pay the proposed access charge but this charge should be no more than their normal geographic call charge, inclusive in packages, and similar to the access charges to 03 numbers. “
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-numb...

Summary
My suggestion is that any extra costs for use of 084 and 087 numbers must be paid by the Organisation which chooses to use those numbers and NOT the callers.

“Callers should pay their normal geographic call price from their own call service supplier as their access charge. Ofcom should ensure that they design the system in such a way that the interests of the calling public are protected, call costs are minimised and that overall efficiency of the phone service is improved in the national interest.”
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-numb...

This extract is from the response by Antelope Consulting which are completely in agreement with my proposals :---

“The distinction between access charges and service charges will not come easily to many people, no matter what names the charges are given. Various possible modifications should be examined (especially if they let people make simplistic but comprehensible distinctions between network costs and information costs). In particular, we favour requiring the access charge to be no greater than the charge for a call to a geographic or mobile number; all non-geographic numbers other than free-to-caller numbers could then be described by one set of rules (as an 03 number would simply be tariffed with the access charge and have a service charge of zero).

More fully, access charges for calls would be no greater than the lowest charges for calls to the majority of assigned 01 or 02 numbers and the majority of assigned 07 numbers in the same circumstances (having the same duration and using the same package with the same prior usage at the same time but ignoring any reduction for local calling). This proposal is like that in Les services à valeur ajoutée: tarification de détail et déontologie (Conseil Général des Technologies de l’Information, October 2008) at http://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gspublication/Rap-CGTIsurSVA.pdf, where the access charge is no greater than the charge for a call to an “interpersonal” number.”
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-numb...

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« Last Edit: Nov 11^th, 2012 at 7:19pm by loddon »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BBC still calling 0845 "local rate"!
Reply #18 - Nov 11^th, 2012 at 9:59pm

In response to the points by Loddon.

loddon wrote on Nov 11^th, 2012 at 6:20pm:

I wonder why the term “business rate” has been dropped? Probably as a result of lobbying by the industry which doesn't want it described more closely for what it is.

The replacement "08" is totally meaningless. "Business Rate" was a perfectly acceptable proposal (in the absence of anything clearer). There is no good reason why it could not be adopted, once the final form of the proposals is presented. Ofcom has not yet engaged with representatives of the consumer side in its working groups - this must come along shortly!

loddon wrote on Nov 11^th, 2012 at 6:20pm:

“An easy way for Ofcom to protect the interests of the public would be to stipulate that the call charges for use of 084 and 087 numbers must be charged to the user Organisations and not to callers, in a similar way to the operation of 03 numbers.”

In effect, this is a proposal that use of the 084 and 087 ranges be regulated in the exactly same way as 03; there is no apparent distinction made. Ofcom proposes regulation to be essentially the same as that for the 09 ranges, although with lower limits on the level of the Service Charge and proportionately less regulation of the manner of use.

Ofcom claims that there is significant demand for numbers which offer a Service Charge of less than 10p (or perhaps 13p) per minute. I have my doubts, and believe that use of these ranges will diminish considerably once there is a recognised requirement to declare the Service Charge. (If that requirement may be evaded, then we are in a different situation!)

Ofcom has also stated that simplification is achieved by there being only one non-geographic range (03) which is guaranteed to be charged at the same rate as a call to a geographic number. This thinking probably influenced the decision not to re-classify 0845, and perhaps 0844/3, in the same way as 0870, although with greater force than was applied when 0870 was re-classified, before Ofcom acquired the stronger powers that it now holds. The principle of Simplification demands that all 084 and 087 ranges are treated in the same way. That is why 0870 is to be returned to its former position.

loddon wrote on Nov 11^th, 2012 at 6:20pm:

“Callers should still pay the proposed access charge but this charge should be no more than their normal geographic call charge, inclusive in packages, and similar to the access charges to 03 numbers.”

It is important to understand that the "Access Charge", as currently proposed, ONLY applies when there is also a Service Charge. This is not the term to apply to the call charge incurred when there is no Service Charge, even though some argue that the two should be equivalent.

We have yet to learn how the telcos will treat the Access Charge. There is a major battle going on over call set-up fees, which Ofcom wishes to outlaw. This begs the question about what Ofcom should do if it is able to succeed in respect of Access Charges, but not the penalty charges imposed for, otherwise inclusive, "out of plan" calls.

There is also the question over whether the fees for Call Plans and Packages should have to cover the Access Charge element of calls to numbers with Service Charges. This is especially relevant to the case of the higher cost 09 numbers, where it is proposed that the Access Charge covers the provision against the cost incurred by telcos having to write off disputed charges for calling Premium Rate Services.

There is a strong argument for saying that those who never call numbers with Service Charges should not have to pay for such calls through their Call Plan or Package subscription. I am not inclined to favour a provision which demands that they do so. It may well be that telcos end up following this approach, by making some or all Access Charges inclusive.

We still have some way to go, with Service Charges being treated as inclusive in some cases - thereby paid by all subscribers. This may eliminate premium charges, however it is hard to suggest that it is equitable for them to be simply distributed across the costs incurred by all.

(continued …)

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BBC still calling 0845 "local rate"!
Reply #19 - Nov 11^th, 2012 at 10:00pm

… continuing a response to the points made by Loddon.

loddon wrote on Nov 11^th, 2012 at 6:20pm:

This extract is from the response by Antelope Consulting which are completely in agreement with my proposals …

From the quote offered, Antelope seems to support the concept of the unbundled tariff, although with concerns about the way in which it is understood. It stresses the importance of the difference between the two components being recognised.

Antelope clearly favours the Access Charge being equivalent to the rate for a geographic call, and thereby presumably subject to the same terms for inclusion in Call Plans and Packages. Indeed, unless it is also proposing a change to the 03 regulations, it proposes that the same term be used to describe the cost of a call to a geographic number.

The quote then extends the issue even further to address the forthcoming situation where the inflated termination fee for calls to mobile (07) numbers will disappear. Ofcom has no current proposals to intervene in respect of the retail pricing implications of this move, but this may have to follow.

Antelope proposes that the Access Charge also equate to the charge for calling a mobile number. I have not investigated the circumstances which pertain in the francophone country referred to, however I suspect that they are much simpler than the present situation in the UK. Ofcom would have a great deal more to do before anything approaching the degree of simplicity sought could be achieved.

loddon wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 8:49am:

The question is - will Ofcom succeed?

If we have doubts about whether Ofcom will be successful in presenting the various categories of types of number effectively, we may be stretching ourselves to give serious consideration to the possibility proposed by Antelope and (apparently) Loddon.

It is proposed that every tariff, mobile and landline, offers a single charge rate for calls to all 01/02/03 and 07 (presumably excluding 070 and 076) numbers, which is also the only charge to the benefit of the call originating telco on calls to 084/087/09/118 (and other) numbers. This is indeed simplicity, but is it desirable, and could Ofcom achieve it?

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