I'm practically about to go in to orbit with crossness here about this after just having all of my remaining 4.34 Euros of Credit Balance on my Orange Mundo Spanish mobile phone SIM card wiped out for calling Plusnet's 0345 140 0200 Technical Support number back in the UK for just 12 seconds.

After being connected to an automated IVR system for 12 seconds I was cut off for reaching zero credit whereas I would have expected an 03 number to only be charged just the same way as a call to a UK 01 or 02 number with the Orange SIM Mundo (see http://movil.orange.es/tarifas/llamar-a-otro-pais/tarjeta-sim-mundo/) and so to have only cost 30 cents connection plus 1 Euro cent per minute for however many minutes the call lasted.

Now neatly tucked away in the small details of call charges to the UK one can find this statement about non standard call charges to fixed lines:-

Reino Unido    0,01€/min.
Reino Unido Local Rate   0,11€/min.
Reino Unido Personal    0,19€/min
Reino Unido Premium   15,4€/min

However nowhere does it say that 03 numbers have bizarrely been classed by Orange Spain as being "Premium Rate", especially when it lists a "Local Rate" charge of 11 cents per minute and this is the most one could possibly believe one might risk being charged, even though Ofcom's General Condition for 03 numbers makes it perfectly clear that only the same rate as for 01/02 calls can be charged.

Bearing in mind that the most expensive Premium Rate numbers only cost 1.50GBP per minute from a UK landline (although there does seem to be despicable tradition of charging a lot more than this from UK mobiles rather than just a fair extra charge or 10 or 20p per minute at most to cover the value of a mobile vs a landline call)  Orange Spain's charge to premium numbers of 15.40 Euros per minute simply beggars belief. Bizarrely they do however offer a near cut price rate of only 19 cents per minute to call 070 PNS numbers run by hospital bedside scam lines.

Now as Ofcom's General Conditions probably only covers UK operators are Orange Spain just going to say hard cheese and we can charge what we like or are they going to turn around and admit they were wrong and either only charge their "Local rate" of 11 cents a minute or their "Geographic Rate" of 1 cent pr minute.

The main issues with Orange Spain is that their customer service number of 470 (free call) only speaks Spanish and they always press a button that cuts you off and sends a text telling you to call their "Service In English" on 902 011 900 but failing to mention that this costs 58 Euro cents per minute plus a 30 cent connection fee.  Thanks to this the first time I called this number to raise billing inaccuracies on my online account I lost about 8 Euros in credit during the call.

As the main Orange Spain customers service people on 470 refuse to accept my Pigeon Spanish and as no email address is listed for Orange Spain at www.ceoemail.com this does seem to be a near nightmare situation that is impossible to get corrected

The only progress I have made so far was after discovering the Facebook page for Orange Spain at http://www.facebook.com/OrangeESP where a few choice posts about the 58 cent per minute foreigner exploitation and the disgrace of charging 03 numbers at 15.4 Euros per minute has got me a couple of messages from one of their customer service people to provide more details.  However when then I set out my problems in English in a Facebook message I got a message back saying they only spoke Spanish.  I have now translated my message to Spanish using Google Translate.

Either way Orange Spain is clearly behaving quite outrageously (something for which they have previously established form) but who knows if OfCoN will do anything about it.  A further complication is that Orange Spain is not part of Everything Everywhere but is instead a wholly owned subsidiary of Orange France.

So for anyone else visiting Spain and looking for a cheap way to call the UK beware of calling 03 numbers and beware of calling any 902 number with an Orange Sim Mundo Spanish SIM card.

Dave wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 8:55pm:


The difficulty may be in ascertaining who's job it is to indicate to Orange Spain the error of their ways.  I mean is it Ofcom's job to contact the Spanish Ministry and then theirs to contact Orange Spain or quite what exactly?  It also says much for Ofcom's truly pathetic failure to advertise the existence and status of 03 numbers that this should have happened at all.

If even I get caught by losing money calling the 902 number (which I thought would only be charged on the Local Rate basis) and also the 03 number then think how many other people are getting rooked this way by Orange Spain.  I also think that those who believe all these abuses will end when the Service Charge has to split out are also living in something of a fantasy world.

Dave wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 11:11pm:


Dave,

But that is just where you are wrong as I believe possibly due to regulatory requirements all Spanish Pay As You Go mobile operators I have so far been with (the other two, Simyo and Pepephone, were Vodafone MVNOs that proved impractical because of their requirement to use the phone every two or three months compared to Orange's only once in every 13 months) they all do provide full itemisation after calls have been made via their online website.  So I have full itemisation that the call cost me this outrageous amount for 12 seconds but there was no way of knowing before I made it that Orange would deem 00 44 3 numbers as being "Premium Rate" at 15.4 Euros per minute

Also even in the UK full itemisation of call cost (even if it is use of one's free monthly minutes or texts) is available for customers of www.ovivomobile.com proving that it is not a regulatory requirement not to provide such itemisation but merely a mafia like cartel agreement between the UK big boys not to do so.

In any event here is the itemisation which proves the point I was making in my Original Post in this thread.

I have not blanked any of the numbers called as they are either Plusnet's number, geographic numbers for Glasgow 2014 (Commonwealth Games) or their own Free Service In Spanish 470 customer services number, who refused to talk to me and kept texting me to call their 902 Service In English number which they totally failed to mention would cost me 58 cents per minute.  I did not call it due to being stung with 58 cent per minute charges for calling it in October last year.

listado de llamadas estas son las llamadas que has realizado entre el 18/09/2013 y el 03/10/2013 para ver tu listado de descargas pulsa aquí .

fecha      destino      tipo      inicio      duración / volumen      coste      promocional

03/10/2013      00443451400200      VOZ      08:21:08       00h 00m 12s      4,34 €      No
02/10/2013      00441413872014      VOZ      14:27:14       00h 00m 21s      0,31 €      No
02/10/2013      00441413872014      VOZ      14:26:14       00h 00m 51s      0,31 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:34:50       00h 08m 59s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:21:57       00h 05m 46s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:12:11       00h 09m 31s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:09:04       00h 02m 46s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:08:15       00h 00m 42s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:06:59       00h 01m 08s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:02:43       00h 03m 57s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      00441414142014      VOZ      11:56:46       00h 05m 42s      0,37 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:52:00       00h 00m 37s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:50:58       00h 00m 51s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:49:11       00h 01m 38s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:46:45       00h 02m 13s      0,00 €      No

bigjohn wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 8:52am:


They are a lot more expensive to use than Ovivo though, especially for data.

kasg wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 10:03am:


Yes I realised afterwards I could have done that.  I just didn't expect there to be a need to have used it as 03 numbers appeared to have finally been accepted and Post Office Homephone and 1899 etc have long accepted them as Normal Rate numbers.  To charge them at Premium Rate at 15.4 Euros per minute rather than NonGeographic/"Local" at 18 cents per minute is inexcusable.  There is also an Ofcom General Condition to that effect.

Now I have a ridiculous reply from Orange Spain customer services claiming they are not responsible for what UK numbers charge for calling them.  You really couldn't make it up could you.

If anyone can track down a Twitter account for any top brass of Orange Spain Or Orange France (the parent company) it would be extremely helpful.

And think if even I am getting scammed like this with these numbers think what is happening to Mr and Mrs Average when on seas on holiday here.........

There may be something in what Orange Spain are saying. The requirement for 03 numbers to be charged the same as 01 and 02 numbers applies only to calls that originate from the UK.

It may well be that the UK network that terminates the 03 call, charges Orange Spain 10 to 14 Euros per minute for doing so. I would check that out first. Orange Spain might not be wholly responsibe for the level of rip-off.

Until you have actually checked the level of termination rate the UK 03 provider levies on Orange Spain everything you say here is merely the keyboard equivalent of hot air.

I resent the "people like you" accusation. I'll tell you now. From the outside this forum does not look like a friendly or welcoming place. Perhaps that explains the low number of people here?

Ian G wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 11:34am:


Clearly if your living is fleecing the public by propagating the existence of high priced NGNs then this forum does not look friendly or welcoming.  I make no apology for that.  People working in that industry are the enemy as far as I am concerned.

I think to everybody else who bitterly resents telecoms extortion and its reliance on people thinking a premium number is normal rate when they call it undoubtedly this looks a perfectly reasonably discussion forum.  A certain kind of person (usually of a customer service person mentality who does not believe we aer individually capable of rational deductive reasoning and demands us to facts their ba****d employers will never ever reveal to the general public) will always say "how do you know that" and you can't say that if our ba*****d employer hasn't disclosed the facts to you.  But in realitry its just common sense that no wholesale buyer is going to agree to a rate anywhere near 15 Euros.