idb wrote on Nov 20^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

This is getting very silly. I hope we are discussing how the UK telephone network works at present, and in a more transparent way in future.

084/087/09 numbers are used to enable Service providers to impose a Service Charge at particular levels according to the range from which they select a number. That is the benefit of this choice of number.

03 numbers offer no such benefit. 080 numbers require them to pay for the call origination.

Is this disputed? If the Service Charge is not collected through the call originitor (who bills the caller) then how else can it be collected?

There may be strong arguments against the use of the micro-payment mechanism of the Service Charge, but the concept exists and will continue to exist. It is a perfectly valid position to call for the abolition of the Service Charge, its prohibition below a certain level, or its restriction to certain ranges (e.g. 09). If these are the arguments being advanced, then let us hear them clearly expressed, with a recognition of what is in place at the moment.

The following quote is edited to make a point:
idb wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 12:54am:

The point made (without the confusing bit about funding its own charge) is plain and simple, probably beyond dispute and likely to be demanded by the revised provisions arising from the CRD when they are announced in their final form shortly. Migration to the equivalent 037 number(s) offers a most convenient option.

This is essentially about changing numbers. The points about what Ofcom could perhaps have done, having multiple numbers and companies paying their own charges simply introduce unnecessary complication to discussion of the essential point. The interesting issue of international regulation was also raised, but appears to have been dropped from the discussion.

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I can see no way that Heathrow airport could justify the imposition of a Service Charge for enquiries from customers. Exactly the same argument applies to many other users of 084/087 numbers.

There is a separate question regarding whether it, or any other organisation, could ever justify offering a service provided by telephone with a Service Charge of up to 13p per minute. Such a service could currently be provided on a 087 number, subject to compliance with Phonepay Plus regulations. A further question relates to whether such a service should be forced to migrate to a 09 number.

The same points cover users of 084 numbers, although at rates up to 7p per minute and not subject to Phonepay Plus regulation.

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I can understand how the surprising fact that Ofcom has got something largely right for once has made contributors to the forum unhappy.

I must contend that when I presented the notion of Heathrow Airport itself paying a charge that it chooses to impose as being absurd, I was offering an objective, rather than purely personal, perspective. The widely-voiced idea of the Service Provider paying the Service Charge seems to arise from a failure to recognise that the level of Service Charge is chosen by the Service Provider, with the option of using a 03 number available if no Service Charge is to be imposed.

The Service Charge may be used to cover some or all of the cost of the advanced facilities available on non-geographic numbers. Some or all of the Service Charge may be used to provide "revenue share".

We can exchange our respective views on matters of policy in relation to many topics, but we need to separate such discussion from disputation on issues of fact.

I'm not sure, but perhaps part of the reason for the protracted discussion above may have arisen from a mis-understanding of some of the terms used. In any case, it seems like it would be worthwhile reviewing the current and proposed system and pointing out some of the advantages the new system will bring.

Non-Geographic Call Pricing - Current and Future

On an 03 number, the call recipient pays for the extra call-handling and call-forwarding charges that arise from using a non-geographic number. The caller pays whatever they would have paid to call an 01 or 02 number, or the call counts towards their inclusive calls allowance. This will continue as before.

On an 084, 087 or 09 number, the caller pays a Service Charge within the overall call price. The level of this charge is set by the user in their initial choice of telephone number (2p to 7p/min on an 0843 or 0844 number, 2p/min on an 0845 number, temporarily zero on an 0870 number, up to 13p/min on an 0871, 0872 or 0873 number, up to £1.53/min on an 09 number).

The caller's telephone company pays this fee to the call recipient's telephone company. The call recipient's telephone company uses this money to pay for the non-geographic call-handling and call-forwarding and then pays out any remainder to the call recipient as revenue share.

At present, the Service Charge is hidden within the 084, 087 or 09 call price. This leads many users of these numbers to deny that it exists. Ofcom propose exposing it so that there is no doubt that it exists, nor how much it is. This exposure will lead many users to stop using these numbers.

Ofcom also propose exposing how much the caller's telephone network takes for itself, by requiring them to declare their Access Charge. For mobile networks, this should lead to a significant reduction in call prices. Mobile networks will not be able to justify an Access Charge as high as 39p/min. Crucially, the Access Charge will have to be identical for all 084, 087 and 09 numbers. This will eradicate the current system where mobile networks charge a single-price for all calls with the same prefix irrespective of the level of Service Charge within. It will reign in the excessive markup -especially by mobile operators- currently seen on calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers.

There's one other advantage that arises from splitting the call price. On networks where the Access Charge for 084, 087 and 09 numbers is set at a level very similar, or identical, to the call price for calling 01 and 02 numbers, it will be clear that the additional cost to the caller when calling an 084, 087 or 09 number (compared to the cost of calling an 01 or 02 number) arises solely from the level of Service Charge demanded by the call recipient. It is this level of price transparency that will cause many users of 084, 087 and 09 numbers to swap to an 03 number.

On networks where the Access Charge for 084, 087 and 09 numbers has been set at a level that is vastly different to the call price for calling 01, 02 and 03 numbers, Ofcom may well start asking questions. It's a reasonable expectation that the two charges will be nearly identical if telephone companies are to make the same level of profit when originating both types of call.

On an 080 number, the call recipient pays for the non-geographic call-handling and call-forwarding and then also pays a bit extra so that the caller's telephone company can be compensated for originating the call (because, from a landline, the caller isn't paying anything for the call). Mobile networks also receive that "call origination" payment. However, many mobile operators deem the amount to not be enough. In those cases, they also charge the caller, and many of them get greedy and charge the caller a lot more than the 2p or so shortfall. Ofcom propose that users pay a bit more for their number, phone networks receive extra compensation, and 080 calls become free from all mobiles.

At the same time as those other changes, Ofcom will do several more things to tidy up some long-standing minor problems. The first of these changes will return 0870 numbers to revenue sharing status, with a Service Charge likely to be around 10p/min. This means that all 084, 087 and 09 numbers will henceforth work in exactly the same way, merely differing in the level of Service Charge involved. 0845 numbers will continue to have a Service Charge around 2p/min. Ofcom will also confirm 03 numbers as being the only non-geographic range charged at the same rate as 01 and 02 numbers and for all callers. The other change concerns the "NTS Condition" which will be removed from BT and they will be allowed to make profit on call origination for 084, 087 and 09 numbers for the very first time.

I know I will get my head snapped off for this (metaphorically!) as it has been many times before when I've said similar but wouldn't it be far easier just to abolish 084/087 numbers, have 09 as the only premium rate (and at only one tariff)??   I appreciate Ian G's explanation of a very involved situation but it really does seem to me to be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut and incredibly bureaucratic for everyone...........and somewhere in this the customer who needs to make a call in a hurry when not near internet access (there are still some of us without portable devices!) is totally forgotten but overcharged!

Barbara wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 2:18pm:

The Service Charge is passed to providers of 084 and 087 numbers (0870 excepted) and its removal would likely mean many of them to become unhappy and go down the legal action route. Such a result would have drawn out any the timescale of the change, if not meaning that it wouldn't happen.

Users of these numbers are "consumers" of telecommunications services as well, so there would clearly be an adverse effect for them.

The splitting up of the two components (Access Charge and Service Charge) simply "tells the truth" about what's happening now. The advantage of this is that organisations can't take legal action over being forced to be open about what's going on!