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Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers (Read 77,821 times)
Ian G
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #30 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 8:27am
 
Why are you still looking back at the past? Things are different now. The arguments are won and action is being taken.

This was never directly a matter for Ofcom, but their recent work is useful in many ways.

BIS rules ban customer service lines from 084, 087 and 09 numbers. That immediately fixes much of the problem. Ofcom rules force users of 084, 087 and 09 numbers to state their Service Charge. This will highlight the reality of the situation and make many other users think again.

We're now in a very different place compared to even a few months ago.

As usual you throw unfounded accusations around. Why can't you celebrate success?
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #31 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:01am
 
Ian G wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 8:27am:
Why are you still looking back at the past? Things are different now. The arguments are won and action is being taken.


How remarkably naive you seem to be.

There is still enormous scope for companies to run telephone lines that are not defined as being customer service lines and thus to continue to use 084/7 numbers to do so.

One of the largest, most relentless and unashamed users of 0844 numbers (even when acting for public bodies like London 2012 or Glasgow 2014) is Ticketmaster.  There is nothing to stop Ticketmaster continuing to run ticket sales lines on 0844 numbers and I am quite sure they will continue to do so.  Only after sales queries would have to be covered by an 03 line.  Ticketmaster's tactic here will be to have a customer service line with an enormous 30 minute+ queue with a totally inadequate number of staff so that most customers hang up before they ever get through to customer services.  Or they may only take customer service enquiries through an online form that they do not turn around either at all or for three weeks.

I see no reason for your unbridled optimism when several years after the NHS imposed clear rules on GPs preventing them using 0844 numbers for normal phone lines to make surgery appointments a large number of them still continue to do soin flagrant defiance of the new regulations.  And is making a GP appointment "customer service" or is it a "sales" activity generating new business?

So some rules are changing.  So What.  The big business interests that have made a fortune out of 084/7 numbers are still out there and will simply be seeking a new method to circumvent the new rules.  An appeal to the Competition Appeals Tribunal and thence on to the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court could take many years while several of the larger companies continue to abuse the spirit of the new regulations.................

They have always gone to the ends of the earth before to avoid dismantling their telephone robbery lines up to now.  So what exactly makes you thinks the large call centre operators will continue to deploy precisely the same tactics going forwards?  The fact that even John Lewis recently tried to use 084 numbers for calling them suggests to me that ethical standards in most of big business continue to get worse rather than better.
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Ian G
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #32 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:33am
 
Once DWP have made the change, joining HMRC in their use of 03 numbers, more than 90% of all calls to government departments will be on 03 numbers. A year ago, it was probably less than 2%. Numerous other departments will be making the switch in the coming months. The figure may not ever reach 100%, but it won't be far off.

No doubt you'll be scouring government websites just so you can come on here in a couple of years time to rant that the "Hindi language version of the sheep-dip advice line for Welsh hill farmers" is obviously run by evil, corrupt people on the take from the telecoms industry because they are the only government phone line still using 0844 telephone numbers. In your mind, they'll obviously have a clear and corrupt motive for not making the change and you'll bang on and on about it as usual.

John Lewis obviously made a mistake. However, in the end, the result looks like not just the John Lewis stores dropping 084 numbers but the whole group including their telecoms business, their insurance arm and Waitrose stores. That will be a strong signal to others in those sectors. Large scale promotion of the change to 03 is still months away. Once that gets going the snowball is going to be unstoppable.

However, now you have moved to Spain, I don't see why any of this should be of interest to you any more. Shouldn't you be tackling all those evil Spanish corporations that are out to get you? We've got the situation covered over here.
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« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2013 at 1:20pm by Ian G »  
 
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CJT-80
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #33 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:36am
 
We all have differing view's on what can and should be done with regards to the use and "banning" of 084/087/09 numbers...

However I really do think that rather than bickering between each other we need to acknowledge and accept that those views differ..

Clearly we ALL feel strongly about this, or we would not be here commenting...

Lets all just take a moment to relax and enjoy the Festive Season which is about to commence..

Smiley
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Regards,

CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com
 
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #34 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 1:26pm
 
Ian G wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:33am:
Once DWP have made the change, joining HMRC in their use of 03 numbers, more than 90% of all calls to government departments will be on 03 numbers. A year ago, it was probably less than 2%.


Where do you get your figures from.  I don't believe any of the figures above. Please quote your sources and please provide an encyclopaedic data set.

Where were you in the many previous years that we were responding to Ofcom and ICSTIS and other consulations and being ignored.  Probably working in some cosy well paid governmental job not worrying at all about telecoms costs I would suspect.

You strongly sound to me like some government civil servant tasked with working on this project to change to 03 who are now afraid that we may rain on your parade in claiming near 100% success by government in sweeping aside this menace to the public whilst ignoring the fact that it was the government and its cronies that introduced the whole rotten system of 084/7 call centres to begin with.  Your assertion this was not Ofcom's issue to deal with is also ridiculous in view of the numerous previous consultations they launched on the issue and then failed to act on.

Why do you not expect me to be cynical when Ofcom firmly announced the 070 number range would move to 06 and then changed their minds at the last minute when a few powerful govrnment interested connected with expensive hospital bedside telephone services got at them.

Why do you have so much faith in BIS when all that is happening is that government is trying to take credit for being forced in to doing something it should have done 10 years ago that it is only bothering to act on now due to an EU Directive.

03 numbers were more or less my personal suggestion to Ofcom and the only personal success I have had with this body.  But they destroyed the purity of the idea by allowing underlying wholesale charges to 03 numbers that were different from geographic numbers making most of the industry reluctant to take them up.

Quote:
Numerous other departments will be making the switch in the coming months. The figure not ever reach 100%, but it won't be far off.


How do you know?  Are you a senior government civil servant tasked with dealing with the matter?  Either way goverment and its regulatory agencies OFTEL and then Ofcom should never have allowed 084/7 numbers to exist and spread like a cancer in the first place.  And the lousy British Government would never have done anything about this European wide plague (also at work everywhere in Spain) had it not been forced on them by the EU.

And why do you think the problem is now at an end?  Surely you must realise  that an already disturbing tendency for many organisations to only offer contact via online web forms that are not responded to for days or weeks will now simply spread ever wider, with no restriction on it doing so.  And surely you must realise that there are numerous activities the public need to call organisations for not deemed as customer services that will still have 084/7 numbers.

But you seem desperate to force us to declare that the war has been won and so to take our eye off the many dodgy conscience less people in positions of power in large organisations who all agreed to these numbers in the first place.

Quote:
John Lewis obviously made a mistake


Please don't give me the old "poor old John Lewis" must not have realised what they were doing baloney when the adverse consequences of using 0844 numbers were known perfectly well and had already received massive and extensive publicity at the time they chose to move to them (they had also already had many years of customers writing to them complaining about the 084 numbers used for johnlewis.com).  The truth is that they just thought it would be profitable to change to 0844 and that their poor old customers would not have a choice as they were already captive.  These things happen time and again because people without a conscience, who only care about their own bonuses, are now in charge of most organisations.  The authority on which I was a councillor were never able to bring in 084/7 numbers as I passed a resolution preventing them doing so back in 2004.  Subsequently they introduced a large and extremely faceless centralised customer services department with long call queues but they had to keep it on the original geograpic number due to my proactive resolution before I left the Council.

Quote:
the snowball is going to be unstoppable.


What planet do you live on exactly?  The BBC and several Police forces and councils changed to 03 numbers several years ago but other organisations and government agencies simply ignored this.

Quote:
However, now you have moved to Spain, I don't see why any of this should be of interest to you any more.


I haven't moved to Spain.  I merely spend a number of weeks a year there.  However the Europe wide telco ripoff movement in the form of 902 numbers is very much alive and well in that country.

At least people know who I am as I have been posting on this forum for nearly 10 years.  You on the other have just sprung up from nowhere, have not explained who you are or what you do and yet constantly declare yourself an expert with your own unique insight in to what the future holds.  Tell us who you are + why you see yourself as qualified to lecture on this subject and we might take you a little more seriously.
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« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2013 at 1:29pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #35 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 1:49pm
 
CJT-80 wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:36am:
We all have differing view's on what can and should be done with regards to the use and "banning" of 084/087/09 numbers...

However I really do think that rather than bickering between each other we need to acknowledge and accept that those views differ..

Clearly we ALL feel strongly about this, or we would not be here commenting...

Lets all just take a moment to relax and enjoy the Festive Season which is about to commence..

Smiley
I agree with CJT-80.

Everyone will have their own opinions which may (or may not) be to others' liking.

This is starting to turn into a bickering match or much worse. Can we therefore keep thread on topic.

Thank you.

Oh and Merry Christmas  Smiley

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NGMsGhost
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #36 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 2:30pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 1:49pm:
This is starting to turn into a bickering match or much worse. Can we therefore keep thread on topic.


I think you will find the bickering is actually mainly OnTopic and relates to IanG's contentions that our worries are now at end regarding the misuse of 084/7 or other Non Geographic numbers and my contention that the current legislation will most definitely not succeed in fully achieving that goal.

The other main problem stems from the fact that IanG has only very recently joined the forum and has none of our history in this struggle (he has not explained why he has not participated in any of these discussions over the previous nearly 10 years) and yet seems to declare himself as unequivocally an expert on this matter whom nobody else is entitled to challenge (rather reminding me in style and approach of another more recent forum joinee known as SilentCallsVictim)

He also seems to go out of his way to be confrontational with longstanding forum members e.g. in his mistaken comments that I now live in Spain so he does not think I am any longer entitled to express a view on these matters.

IanG strongly smacks to me of possibly being a government civil servant tasked with declaring all public worries about 084/7 misuse by the government now at an end.  If however that is not who he is and he has joined the forum for some other reason then perhaps he can set out the basis on which he now has such a strong interest in these matters having never previously participated in any of the relevant discussions over the large number of preceding years.
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« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2013 at 2:31pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Ian G
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #37 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 2:46pm
 
Quote:
He also seems to go out of his way to be confrontational

That's rich, given the number of accusations you have hurled at me over the last few months. Where was I before? Reading the forum, but not joining in, mainly because looking from the outside it is a very unwelcoming place.


Whether things should "never have been allowed" or not is irrelevant. What we have to deal with now is the situation as it exists today, and how to put it right as best as can be achieved. There will never be 100% compliance. That's life. However, the current work makes huge advances compared to all that has gone before.

Ofcom have made huge blunders in the past, especially their decision on 0870 in 2009. Their current work puts that right and deals with many other problems. Likewise the new law from BIS addresses much of the core issue. They are steps forward. That's what we need. No point in dreaming about what might have been, deal with what we have.
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« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2013 at 3:24pm by Ian G »  
 
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #38 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 3:32pm
 
Oh dear.  As others have said, we all have our own views about particular aspects but this is the season of goodwill & we are all supposed to be on the same side I thought with (at least) some shared aims?   Some recent posts do no credit to our campaigns & may even give satisfaction to "the enemy".

So.........Happy Christmas everyone & may 2014 bring us success in ending the exploitation of callers to all organisations which use other than 01,02 & 03 numbers for all contact (& 080 for those who can benefit from them) - hope I've included everything!
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #39 - Dec 25th, 2013 at 10:27pm
 
Ian G wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 2:46pm:
Where was I before? Reading the forum, but not joining in, mainly because looking from the outside it is a very unwelcoming place.

It never seemed the least bit unwelcoming as a place to all true haters of big business profiteering via sinister undisclosed charges for several years until the appearance of a member known as SilentCallsVictim.  Indeed up to that point there was always one of the highest levels of commonality of mind amongst established forum members that I have ever encountered almost anywhere on the internet.

The fact you only observed the forum in the past and did not participate only goes to strengthen my suspicions that you are someone who works in a management position at an organisation that is or was a large scale user of 084/7 numbers.   Your reasons for observation were presumably to decide how much longer you could get away with misusing these number until such time as the public clamour for action against them became overwhelming.

You clearly, in my humble opinion, only perceived the forum as an unfriendly place because had you disclosed your real involvement in the operation of 084/7 lines you knew the level of public oprobrium here you would suffered.

Quote:
Whether things should "never have been allowed" or not is irrelevant.


No it isn't.  It is highly relevant as to whether we can trust those who operate these lines to probably only pay lip service to the new regulations before then inventing a new way to circumvent them.

Quote:
Ofcom have made huge blunders in the past, especially their decision on 0870 in 2009. Their current work puts that right and deals with many other problems.


They are only acting now becuase the EU Directive forces them to.  Without it they would have continued to sit on their hands Ad Inifinitum.

Quote:
Likewise the new law from BIS addresses much of the core issue. They are steps forward. That's what we need. No point in dreaming about what might have been, deal with what we have.


You still sound to me like someone involved in running these call centres for a long time who has grudgingly accepted the inevitable and who is now seeking to earn some form of cudos from being forced to take an action that you know will cost you quite a lot of money.
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« Last Edit: Dec 25th, 2013 at 10:30pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Ian G
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #40 - Dec 25th, 2013 at 11:07pm
 
There you go again. More accusations. Pathetic.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #41 - Dec 25th, 2013 at 11:16pm
 
Ian G wrote on Dec 25th, 2013 at 11:07pm:
There you go again. More accusations. Pathetic.


Yet you fail to counteract my accusations with any hard facts about yourself to prove that they are not true.

Everything about the way you have behaved since you came on the forum suggests to me that you are not a passionate campaigner against the misuse of these numbers but that you are someone with a lot at stake financially now that gravy train is in danger of being somewhat curtailed.

After all what would suddenly have prompted you to break your silence after so many years of only occasional contemptuous observation of us disorganised and also previously ineffective "whingers".
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Ian G
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #42 - Dec 25th, 2013 at 11:30pm
 
You have no idea where I have been campaigning nor the many successes I have had, but I certainly won't be sharing any of my history with you.

Those that need to know; they know.
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« Last Edit: Dec 25th, 2013 at 11:32pm by Ian G »  
 
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #43 - Dec 26th, 2013 at 12:35am
 
Ian G wrote on Dec 25th, 2013 at 11:30pm:
You have no idea where I have been campaigning nor the many successes I have had, but I certainly won't be sharing any of my history with you.


All that we do know is that you began using the handle Ian G to make posts on this topic in various different places only within the last 6 months.

See the following:-

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/ian-g/28713.publicprofile

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/user/?u=32715

Quote:
Those that need to know; they know.


As to why you either weren't making posts on the subject as Ian G before 6 month ago or weren't making any posts at all clearly only you can tell us.

From your general love of obstruse discussions on the technical minutiae of the ripoff apparatus I would however imagine that you and a certain SilentCallsVictim would tend to have a great deal in common.
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« Last Edit: Dec 26th, 2013 at 12:36am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Legislation banning the use of 084/087/09 numbers
Reply #44 - Dec 26th, 2013 at 6:10pm
 
The regulation does not ban any use of 084 etc numbers. It says that if a company only offers an 084 etc number for after-sales service, a consumer can claim from the company the additional cost to that consumer of calling 084 etc, compared with that consumer's "basic rate". The regulation does not define "basic rate". The government's announcement of the regulation
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-cuts-off-costly-calls
explained that
Quote:
From next year (2014), if something goes wrong with a cooker, or commuters want a refund on their season ticket, they will now pay the same to phone a helpline as they do to call friends or family.

For many people, the marginal cost of phoning a friend is zero.
Therefore, from June 2014, if you have to phone an 084 etc number for after-sales service, and you have unlimited calls to geographic numbers, you will be able to demand that the company reimburses you for the cost of your phone call. If a lot of people do this, most companies will stop using 084 etc numbers for after-sales enquiries.
There will, alas, be no redress for the use of 084 etc numbers as a means of charging (for example) an additional "booking fee" for the purchase of a theatre ticket.
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