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Problems with 141 (Read 17,331 times)
Barbara
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Problems with 141
Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:26am
 
Does anyone know if there are problems now or charges for using 141 to withhold one's number?   I have just tried it twice with two different numbers & get the automated voice response: "You are not subscribed to this service. To use this service please contact your telephone provider."   This seems very odd and is certainly a retrograde & unfair change if it is true that individual subscribers either can't use 141 or have to pay for it whereas others are free to breach TPS etc with impunity & withhold their numbers.   I have used 141 without problems in the past & we are not with BT (we're with Utility Warehouse) so their newly-introduced charges for some things shouldn't affect us.   Any help & advice would be much appreciated.
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bigjohn
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #1 - Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:41am
 
Its still free to use 141(Withold Your Number) Barbara with BT and other suppliers,and UW dont mention it as one of their chargeable call features.

If you follow the link in my recent post http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1390271835/0#0 your see TT confirm its free from  a few big providers..

Sounds like you might  have a fault on your line.

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« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:57am by bigjohn »  

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Barbara
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #2 - Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:29pm
 
Thank you, I'll try again over the next couple of days & if it's still a problem contact our TP.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #3 - Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:54pm
 
There is an absolute right to require your CLI to be withheld from those who you call.

You own telephone company must offer you that facility, and that of the person you call must respect your request.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #4 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 1:15pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:54pm:
You own telephone company must offer you that facility, and that of the person you call must respect your request.


They don't however offer an absolute right to conceal WHERE you are calling from rather than what number you are calling from.

A considerable number of the more aggressive 084 users such as Ticketmaster go to great lengths to identify if your call is coming from a UK destination or not (regardless of them not having the actual CLI you have withheld via 141) and then refuse to connect your call on their geographic alternative number from within the UK.  The same is true of their line for Glasgow 2014 and was true of call centres like HMRC before they finally switch to 03 numbers.

Perhaps SilentCallsVictim can illuminate us on how Ticketmaster and others know WHERE you are calling from as distinct from WHAT NUMBER YOU ARE CALLING FROM?
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bbb_uk
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #5 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 1:54pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:54pm:
There is an absolute right to require your CLI to be withheld from those who you call.

You own telephone company must offer you that facility, and that of the person you call must respect your request.
I believe that is still true to the best of my knowledge.

However not everyone follows rules on withholding CLI.  When one uses 141 to withhold CLI, I believe a flag is set to indicate withhold CLI.  The receiving CP should also respect this flag and withhold CLI (except obviously in situations like emergency services) from the person/company called.

However, I believe some taxi companies are able to see your CLI even though caller requested to withhold it.  Probably other companies as well and maybe even how ticketmaster get away with it.

I posted about this in this thread.
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« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2014 at 2:01pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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bazzerfewi
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #6 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 2:18pm
 
If the CLI is withheld companies are able to over ride this feature even when based in the U.K.

And if the company is based outside the UK Ofcom or any other regulator are able to override this feature.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #7 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 2:29pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Feb 15th, 2014 at 2:18pm:
If the CLI is withheld companies are able to over ride this feature even when based in the U.K.


I don't think they can override the CLI Withold request and get your actual number.  What they do get is an indication that it is a fixed line geographic call originated in the UK or possibly even in a certain part of the UK down to a region, county or town level.

They will claim they get this just in the better interests of allocating your call to the correct call handling team.  Clearly that is not the real reason Ticketmaster, HMRC and others actually wanted to know if your call was originated in the UK.
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bazzerfewi
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #8 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 4:02pm
 
The company I use for my none geographical numbers provide this service. It is essential for Taxi Drivers as they can ring the customer and confirm the fair before they set off.

this is my view and I cannot say for a fact that this information is correct

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NGMsGhost
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #9 - Feb 16th, 2014 at 4:01pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Feb 15th, 2014 at 4:02pm:
The company I use for my none geographical numbers provide this service. It is essential for Taxi Drivers as they can ring the customer and confirm the fair before they set off.


Surely the fare can be confirmed with the customer when they make the booking.    And if the customer wants to provide their number to the taxi driver to make contact if the driver is having trouble finding their address then the customer can choose to give their number to the taxi firm.

What is the use of a 141 service that can be got around by anybody other than the Police or the Security Services simply in return for payment of additional money?
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« Last Edit: Feb 16th, 2014 at 5:28pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Ian G
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #10 - Feb 16th, 2014 at 6:31pm
 
Many taxi firms have an automated ringback service that informs you when the taxi is about to pull up outside.

It rings back on the number the booking call came from.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #11 - Feb 16th, 2014 at 6:47pm
 
Ian G wrote on Feb 16th, 2014 at 6:31pm:
Many taxi firms have an automated ringback service that informs you when the taxi is about to pull up outside.

It rings back on the number the booking call came from.


OK that seems useful but if the customer chooses to withhold their number then why on earth should a taxi firm be more entitled to have it than anyone else.  After all female passengers who live alone might in particular feel threatened by the idea of a male driver being able to get access to their phone number.
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Ian G
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #12 - Feb 16th, 2014 at 6:53pm
 
It's an automated system. The call is made from the taxi firm's central office.

The driver does not have access to the phone number, merely pushes a button on a dashboard controller when nearing the pick up point.


The system also allows phone numbers known to call in hoax bookings or run off without paying to be blocked from making bookings.
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« Last Edit: Feb 16th, 2014 at 7:00pm by Ian G »  
 
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #13 - Feb 16th, 2014 at 7:20pm
 
Ian G wrote on Feb 16th, 2014 at 6:53pm:
The system also allows phone numbers known to call in hoax bookings or run off without paying to be blocked from making bookings.

Is there a commercial name for this system and was a special exemption agreed by Ofcom to allow this system to be given a customer's CLI data?
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Problems with 141
Reply #14 - Feb 16th, 2014 at 9:43pm
 
Any call terminating telecoms company that reveals withheld CLI to its clients is breaking the law. Whatever the arguments about the value of this information to taxi companies, the caller's wish to withhold CLI MUST be respected.

Regulation 10 of the PECR covers the right to withhold CLI - free of charge.

Regulation 13 of the PECR requires the call terminating operator to co-operate with the call originating operator, by ensuring that a request to withhold CLI is respected.

Regulation 14 of the PECR covers the processing of "location" data, as referred to in Reply #4.
There may be technical legal issues over the manner in which "consent" to use this data is granted in some cases, however I would suspect that anyone calling a number advertised as only being usable from overseas would have a problem in getting action taken over a case where their misuse of such a number (to call from the UK) was detected without their consent.

The ICO is strictly responsible for enforcement of compliance with the terms of the PECR, as this is technically classed as a piece of Data Protection Legislation. Ofcom is however primarily responsible for the behaviour of telcos through the imposition and enforcement of General Conditions.

General Condition 16.2(b) (on Page 56/95) requires: Calling Line Identification Facilities to be provided “in accordance with the requirements of Relevant Data Protection Legislation”. A breach of the terms of such legislation would represent a breach of that General Condition.

If anyone has clear evidence of a breach of any of these regulations, the fair telecoms campaign would be delighted to support them in getting action taken.

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