Some further thoughts, for whatever they made add to the discussion.


This site - as such - has only one premise: find a cheaper number to call if you can.

Anyone, from any position, is free to contribute to this discussion forum. Some contributors have suggested that there should be a specific line followed by all those who contribute, however that has not been achieved.

Once Ofcom had "said NO to …" Service Charges on "… 0870" (in August 2009) the name of the site had rather lost its meaning. The only organ to emerge from extensive discussions about how to move forward was "the fair telecoms campaign", although that has been widely opposed by contributors to the forum and now has an uncertain future.



Callers to mobiles continue to indirectly subsidise the user of the mobile - how else could there be free SIMs!

Callers to 084/087/09 numbers (except 0870 for the moment) continue to indirectly subsidise those they call - whether or not "revenue sharing" takes place.

The amounts and mechanisms differ, but the principle is the same.

When something odd is happening, this also gives the call provider an opportunity to take a slice (often the larger slice) for themselves.

The latter point creates confusion about whether it is the user of the number or the call provider who is the "bad guy". This confusion is obviously exploited heavily by both parties and also by the telephone service provider to the user of the number, who may often warrant the most blame of all.

Anyone who goes looking for "bad guys" to attack in general is on a very sticky wicket, especially if they only consider the position from a single user perspective. The easy answer is always to blame Ofcom.



We are getting close to the position where, for the vast majority, calls to "ordinary" landline and mobile numbers will be free of call charges - this is already largely true for mobiles - because they will be covered by the caller's "calling plan" for a monthly fee. Calls to "special" numbers will, I hope, be charged per call, at a fixed fee or duration based rate, rather than being built into calling plans so as to muddy the issue (as in some cases at present). Calls to ordinary numbers, outside the terms of the chosen calling plan, will continue to be subject to penalty charges.

Once we get to this "happy" position, one hopes that the market will deliver a suitable range of calling plans to meet most needs, at competitive prices. Long term commitment to a calling plan that may become unsuitable as needs change is a threat to this market, as is the tying of handset leases to calling plans. The unbundled tariff will deliver greater transparency to charges for calls to "special" numbers, although it is hard to see a fully functioning market in Service Charges, except where the call is the totality of the service. There is doubt about whether Access Charges for calls to special numbers and the levels of penalty charges will be thought sufficiently significant, alongside selection of a calling plan, to be subject to serious competitive pressure, although I am relatively optimistic.

Good answers, both of you. I can see how my position is weakened somewhat, in pointing a finger directly at any one party anyway.

It seems that by wrestling with a 'Pig in Sh*t' everyone comes out dirty.

It is also difficult to nail down a cohesive argument. My argument would be have been infinitely stronger a few years back, but the telco market and Ofcom have introduced a moving target that is frankly a slippery fish.

In short I support the real function, intended or otehrwise to give alternative numbers to premium rate calls of this site.
Our 0870 is still used by our comapny, and before its alternative 0370 was made a ruling, we regarded, for reasons I've expained in the past,  ourselves as victims too. The winers for called and caller in our case was only the telcos.

Self-interest prevails.

I like the vending-machine analogy, but to draw a proper analogy andbe  truly accurate to what is after all a mess, is a struggle.

I freely admit to my own hypocrisy, I sit here with at least 3 SIMS being used on PAYG that i've had for 3-4 years now for occasional use. I've certainly not paid for these in adding more credit. With tiny amounts of non-expiring balance sitting onn them, someone must be paying for them, and it is clearly not me.

Again, self-interest prevails.

And your database is somethign I'll take a peek at.

Moi?

In reviving a five year old thread, be aware that call charges changed significantly some four years ago, giving much needed clarity. Calls to 080 numbers are now free in all circumstances. Calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers are now split into two component parts. Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are never cheaper than calling 01, 02 or 03 numbers and are usually very much more expensive. Calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers are normally made as part of an inclusive calls allowance at no further charge.

Comparison of 03, 080 and 084/087 numbers is now much easier. See the plain English piece at https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/contacting-08-and-03-numbers

This now clearly shows 084, 087 and 09 numbers as "premium rate". The premium is the additional Service Charge. This website therefore helps users find inclusive 01, 02 or 03 numbers or free-to-caller 080 numbers in place of expensive 084 and 087 numbers.


Additionally, termination rates for calls to UK mobile numbers starting 071 to 075 and 077 to 079 have continued to fall such that these calls are now routinely inclusive in allowances on the same basis as calls to UK geographic numbers starting 01 and 02, and to non-geographic numbers starting 03. From 1 October 2019, the reduction in termination rates for calls to personal numbers starting 070 will allow these calls to be included in allowances on the same basis as calls to UK mobile numbers.

Ofcom is now much closer to their aim of simplifying the numbering system and call charges.
Inclusive in allowances - 01, 02, 03, 070, 071-075, 077-079 (except landlines and mobiles in CI and IoM)
Free at all times - 080, 116 (plus 101 {from 1 April 2020}, 105, 111, 112/999)
Premium rate - 084, 087, 09, 118.
This leaves minor anomalies with 055, 056 and 076.

Mobile calls these days are only more expensive when called from a BT landline or when called from BT sub brands such as Plusnet who quite disgustingly fail to include mobile numbers in their Anytime call plans.  By contrast competitors such as TalkTalk, Sky and Now Tv include mobile numbers in call bundles and of course all EE mobile plans (a company owned by BT) with inclusive calls include mobile numbers in the bundle.

BT's overcharging of its own landline customers to call mobiles simply reflects the continuing distortive market power of the BT group who know that they can get away with charging ripoff prices to call mobiles from landlines because of their incumbent legacy market position (especially strong with older customers reluctant to change away from a company they mistakenly trust).  BT Group also rips off all prisoners in UK prisons by charging them 13p per minute to mobiles and only 6p to landlines and then also quite disgracefully having got HM Prison Services to impose a prison rule saying prisoners should not call any 01/02/03 number known to divert to a mobile to save the prisoner money.  Yet there is no reason for such a rule as all prisoner phone calls are recorded and since mobile phones came in to being an 07 mobile number on a prisoner's approved caller list can currently be sitting anywhere in the world at any time (unlike former landline only days when the prison service rule had some practical effect as an extra security measure).  So just the same old scam in place as with Patientline where patients were banned from using their own mobiles on hospital wards to protect the disgusting and also clearly illegal misuse of 070 follow me numbers by Patientline in cahoots with BT Group.

But I can't see the point being made here claiming we are contributing to the whole scam with our mobile phones as these days almost everyone has a mobile phone call bundle with as many minutes of calls per month as they normally make and these bundles now always include calls to mobile numbers.  So while it is true a tiny number of older people who only use landlines for phone calls (these get less and less every year) are being vastly overcharged to call mobiles that is because BT Openreach acts uncompetitively in terminating calls from the fixed line network to the mobile network at excessive premium prices and/or because the mobile companies are also making these excess termination charges to connect landlines to their users.

In any case my £10 per month package with Giff Gaff gives me unlimited calls to 01/02/03 and 075-079 numbers plus 6Gb of data and as almost no one pays extra to call mobiles any more the point being made is simply not valid any longer in my humble opinion.  It would have been valid to some extent prior to 3 or more years ago.

I suspect the OP who started this thread is in fact highly embedded in the revenue share gravy train industry (may be he even works for one of the UK share registrars like Link Asset Servces still illegally using 0871 numbers for customers contact, despite my detailed complaint explaining why it was illegal to do so) and is feeling sour about his nice little earner being crushed by the actions of our group so has made his post here in order to have a pop at us...............

Ian01 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2019 at 10:36pm:


But the problem is that the Anytime UK & Mobile calls now costs £8 per month extra whereas anytime calls to other landline only used to cost as little as £4 or £5 per month extra to the best of my memory. Whereas £10 per month with GiffGaff gives me unlimited landline and mobile calls and unlimited texts and 6Gb of mobile data.  So £8 per month just for slightly better call quality on a landline than a mobile and no dropped calls is an awful lot to pay for one person.  Of course for a whole family of four or five this bolt on would constitute better value for money.

As far as I am concerned any broadband provider that also offers mobile like Plusnet ought to be including unlimited calls on the landline too for far less.  Also Plusnet are currently ripping me off for £32 for 16Mbps copper broadband just because they don't offer fibre to the premises (we don't have a fibre to the cabinet option) and I didn't want to get in to another 18 month contract when I was thinking of moving some time soon.

Its also rubbish that all these broadband providers only offer their lowest prices to people they blackmail in to repeat renewing 18 month contracts as this means anyone who downsizes and combines with another household or moves abroad loses out in a big way in penalty charges (as you only don't pay termination charges if you can move your broadband service to another address you are moving to).

allegro wrote on Sep 29^th, 2019 at 6:42am:


The cheapest Anytime call packages without mobile calls certainly were only £4 or £5 per month and currently NowTv is doing a year of copper ADSL broadband and  phone line with Anytime Calls that include mobiles and significant cashback on top for only £18 per month for a 12 month contract.

So I would say £8 per month for Anytime Calls on top of £32 per month for copper phone line and broadband with Plusnet as an old customer is pretty expensive.

The regulators should be stopping all of these ridiculous inducements to change company (all of which wastes money on marketing and promotion) on utilities while people are punished and ripped off for staying where they are.

The reason this happens is because marketing people and CEOs only get measured on new customers and not on the net customer position.  If treating old customers well to avoid losing them had as much value as acquiring new ones then all of these ridiculous inducements to change company would end.

Same thing with low cost flights and if the regulators had forced flight search engines to include an option for a hold bag or things like priority boarding or having an allocated seat then Ryanair and Easyjet would not have grown and prospered in the way that they have done.

Ian01 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2019 at 9:11am:


Then how come almost every mobile package that has inclusive calls also includes mobile numbers as well as landlines at no extra cost over a package of calls only to landlines.  Or rather a long time ago some mobile operators gave unlimited minutes to landlines and a defined number of minutes to mobiles but those plans have long since vanished because the cost of calling another mobile compared to a landline from a mobile is practically nothing extra and/or because being able to only make unlimited calls to landlines is no longer useful as a marketing proposition.

Quote:


Well fat difference that will make then given that the only people who have ever used 070 numbers are scammers like Patientline and Retainacar and they have never been used for their stated purpose of personal Follow Me Numbers (such numbers are in any case free per minute to run in 01/02 Voip form from sipgate.co.uk).

If Ofcom wasn't such a totally gutless in the pocket creation of the telecoms industry they would have simply banned 070 numbers along with all 084 and 087 numbers on a few months advance notice.