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CPC / Farnell (Read 43,548 times)
derrick
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CPC / Farnell
Jun 23rd, 2014 at 9:29am
 
Is there somewhere you can make an official complaint re companies not complying?

Is there a link to a simple explanation of the directive?

I ask because CPC, ( http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/bespoke3.jsp?bespokepage=cpc/en_CC/support/he...), are still using 0844 numbers despite me emailing them last week to change the numbers, I had no reply whatsoever from them.


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~ Edited by Dave: Thread split off and renamed
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« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2014 at 4:37pm by Dave »  
 
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Ian G
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #1 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 9:43am
 
You can report it to the Citizen's Advice "Consumer Helpline" on 0345 404 0506.
They collect and collate these reports and pass them on to Trading Standards where appropriate.

This explains the new regulations:
http://fairtelecoms.org.uk/consumer-rights-directive.html
The regulations cover B2C, not B2B, transactions.
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« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2014 at 12:44pm by Ian G »  
 
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derrick
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Re: Carphone Warehouse
Reply #2 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 10:11am
 
Ian G wrote on Jun 23rd, 2014 at 9:43am:
You can report it to the Citizen's Advice "Consumer Helpline" on 0345 404 0506.
They collect and collate these reports and pass them on to Trading Standards where appropriate.

This explains the new regulations:
http://fairtelecoms.org.uk/consumer-rights-directive.html
The regulations cover B2C, not B2B, transactions.



I did send them that link, but it is not an "official" page.Also clicking on the first link, "Consumer Rights Directive" brings up a "EUR-Lex page with "The requested document does not exist."

I also sent them this one: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-cuts-off-costly-calls   should that suffice?


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derrick
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Re: Carphone Warehouse
Reply #3 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 10:18am
 
Have you noticed that CA "Contact us page" http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm still advertise 0844 numbers and even offer an explanation as to why they use them: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice/why_we_use_084_numbers.htm


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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Carphone Warehouse
Reply #4 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 10:33am
 
derrick wrote on Jun 23rd, 2014 at 10:18am:
Have you noticed that CA "Contact us page" http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm still advertise 0844 numbers and even offer an explanation as to why they use them: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice/why_we_use_084_numbers.htm.

CA has secured additional funding which will enable it to dispense with the 0844 numbers for access to the Bureaux and Advice services. The work is underway and is promised for completion by the end of September.
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Ian G
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #5 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 11:50am
 
The EUR-Lex website seems to be having problems today.
Many documents do not load or cannot be found.


Send them these links:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/41/made
http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/...

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« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2014 at 12:46pm by Ian G »  
 
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derrick
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #6 - Jun 25th, 2014 at 8:54am
 
Ian G wrote on Jun 23rd, 2014 at 11:50am:
The EUR-Lex website seems to be having problems today.
Many documents do not load or cannot be found.


Send them these links:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/41/made
http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/...



Sent them the links, informing them that they need to change their numbers, they responded with the reply below:-

Thank you for the below correspondence which has been forwarded by one of my colleagues, I apologise that you have felt the need to express concern in regards to our 0844 telephone number.
We are aware that there has been a change in legislation which is currently under review by our legal department, however as we only have one direct line into the contact centre and the use of the 0844 number can still be used as a sales line we need to ensure that all correct processes are followed.
We use the 08447 number mainly to guarantee ongoing normal business in the event of a disaster or corporate relocation, so that customer’s access to CPC will not be disrupted and the number will stay the same.Should such an instance occur our calls would be diverted to Premier Farnell in order that our customers are still able to make contact.
We are aware that there are ongoing investigations into the use of the 08447 number by some companies, under the suspicion that calls are deliberately kept on hold to maximise revenue, please be assured that this is not the case with CPC and we are constantly monitoring our services in order to improve and greatly appreciate the feedback given.

In the meanwhile please feel free to use our 01772 65 44 55 contact number or orders can be sent to orders@cpc.co.uk and enquiries to sales@cpc.co.uk


Once again thank you for taking to the time to inform us,



Now I believe that the fact they only have one number that "can still be used as a sales line", does not exempt them from the legislation,( a fact easily overcome anyway by using an 0344 number that I understand has to be offered free of charge from their telco), as the same number, by definition, has to be used if the customer wishes to complain or exercise their cancellation rights, as per section J in the PDF link you provided.

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Ian G
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #7 - Jun 25th, 2014 at 2:15pm
 
If they only have one number and, irrespective of whatever else it is used for, customers ring that number about things they have already bought, then the number has to change. If they want to retain the 0844 number for sales and set up a new 03 number for customer service functions including order tracking, returns, complaints, refunds and so on, that's another option they have open. The matching 0344 number has been available to them since 2007.

The time for "reviewing" has long since passed. The deadline for compliance was 13 June 2014. That deadline has been known ever since the EU Directive was published in October 2011. There was the possibility of the UK government enacting the provisions earlier than that deadline, but there was never a possibility of it being later than that date. The UK consultation took place in autumn 2012, draft legislation was published in August 2013 and the final version in December 2013.

Once their telecoms supplier has been informed, it's often a 24~48 hour process to get the matching 03 number working. It is a well established process - one that tens of thousands of companies have completed in recent months.

The media are starting to pick up on this story:
http://www.sundaypost.com/that-s-life/raw-deal/high-street-firms-clings-to-rip-o...
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« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2014 at 5:29pm by Ian G »  
 
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derrick
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #8 - Jun 25th, 2014 at 5:32pm
 
Ian G wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 at 2:15pm:
If they only have one number and, irrespective of whatever else it is used for, customers ring that number about things they have already bought, then the number has to change. If they want to retain the 0844 number for sales and set up a new 03 number for customer service functions including order tracking, returns, complaints, refunds and so on, that's another option they have open.

The time for "reviewing" has long since passed. The deadline for compliance was 13 June 2014. That deadline has been known ever since the EU Directive was published in October 2011. There was the possibility of the UK government enacting the provisions earlier than that deadline, but there was never a possibility of it being later than that date. The UK consultation took place in autumn 2012, draft legislation was published in August 2013 and the final version in December 2013.

Once their telecoms supplier has been informed, it's often a 24~48 hour process to get the matching 03 number working. Ofcom made these replacement numbers available in 2007. It is a well established process - one that tens of thousands of companies have completed in recent months.

The media are starting to pick up on this story:
http://www.sundaypost.com/that-s-life/raw-deal/high-street-firms-clings-to-rip-o...



Since posting I have emailed them re all of the points in your post, I received a read receipt and await their response.


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Ian G
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #9 - Jun 25th, 2014 at 6:25pm
 
It may be instructive to see if they have any idea what callers pay to ring their 0844 number. You'll likely get the usual "5p/min from a BT line". While that may be true (once you also add the 15p connection fee), BT accounts for very few calls. Most callers will be paying substantially more. The essential point is that most people call standard 01, 02 and 03 numbers using their inclusive allowance on their landline or mobile. Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are generally non-inclusive with every such call further pushing up the bill.

The fact the "legal team" are having deliberations over this suggests they don't get it. Is the 2p/min income from the 0844 number so vital that they are prepared to expose their customers to call prices of up to 41p/min in order to continue collecting their tiny share? From June 2015 they will be required to declare that calls to their 0844 number incur a Service Charge. All of the technical facilities of a non-geographic number are equally available on 03 and 08 numbers alike. However, usage of an the 03 number removes the exposure to high call prices. These calls must be charged the same as 01 and 02 calls and count towards inclusive allowances in the same way.
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« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2014 at 12:04pm by Ian G »  
 
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derrick
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Re: Carphone Warehouse
Reply #10 - Jun 26th, 2014 at 10:16am
 
Ian G wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 at 6:25pm:
It may be instructive to see if they have any idea what callers pay to ring their 0844 number. You'll likely get the usual "5p/min from a BT line". While that may be true (once you also add the 15p connection fee), BT accounts for very few calls. Most callers will be paying substantially more. The essential point is that most people call standard 01, 02 and 03 numbers using their inclusive allowance on their landline or mobile. Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are generally non-inclusive with every such call further pushing up the bill.

The fact the "legal team" are having deliberations over this suggests they don't get it. Is the 2p/min income from the 0844 number so vital that they are prepared to expose their customers to call prices of up to 41p/min in order to continue collecting their tiny share? From June 2015 they will be required to declare that calls to their 0844 number incur a Service Charge. All of the technical facilities of a non-geographic number are equally available on 03 and 08 numbers alike. However, usage of an the 03 number removes the exposure to high call prices. These calls must be charged the same as 01 and 02 calls and count towards inclusive allowances in the same way.




I think I got most of what you say across, email that I sent them yesterday; -

Hello Sophie,

I am afraid the fact you only have one line into your contact centre does not exempt you from the legislation as customers have to use the same number to complain or exercise their DSR rights, see Section J from the PDF link I sent you:-

"J. Prohibition on customer helplines charging more than basic rate

How can I comply with the basic rate requirement?

1. Where a telephone helpline is provided, the basic rate requirement means
not charging more to phone a trader about something you have bought than
to call a friend or relative, that is to say the simple cost of connection. This
telephone number provided should not provide the trader with a contribution
to their costs 

2. The following numbers, if used by traders, would comply with the
regulations:
    Geographic numbers or numbers which are always set at the same
rate, which usually begin with the prefix 01, 02, or 03;

4. Other revenue sharing numbers would not comply. These are numbers in
which a portion of the call charge can be used to either provide a service or
make a small payment to the trader. These usually have the prefix 084 or
0871, 0872 or 0873."


This legislation came into effect on 13th June 2014 and you should have implemented it on or before that date to comply.

You could use an 03 number where your telco is obliged to offer you, free of charge, a change to the relevant 03 number, i.e the only digit changed is the 8 to a 3, and the charge to the caller is the same as 01/02 numbers and included in all phone packages.

You appear to not know, or choose to ignore, that the same call facilities are available on an 0344 number as on an 0844 number, and that you can move to the matching 0344 number by making one simple phone call to your provider to action it without incurring a penalty fee on their telephone services contract or equipment lease.

The only reason you are using an 0844 revenue sharing number is to, (covertly), extract money from your customers via the telephone system, well the EU has finally done what Ofcom should have done years ago and banned unscrupulous traders from using these numbers!

There is no number code 08447, the code is 0844, a revenue sharing number classed by Ofcom as "Business Rate numbers", you use 08447 as a disguise for the true number that can cost up to 41ppm from a mobile and are never included in phone packages!
See this Ofcom PDF publication: - http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/files/2010/01/numbering.pdf

Chargeable 08 Business Rate numbers


These are used by large and small businesses for sales, enquiry and

customer service lines and for some pay-as-you go internet access

services.

0843 and 0844


How much do calls cost? Calls are charged between 1p and 13p per

minute for landline customers. Calls from mobile phones are typically charged between

20p and 41p per minute, depending on the provider and the number called.


Think about it, if you are concerned for your customers then you should, morally, be using an 03 number if your laughable comment, "event of a disaster or corporate relocation" is to be believed!

.

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Ian G
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #11 - Jun 26th, 2014 at 10:47am
 
I would not have included the words "These are used by large and small businesses for sales, enquiry and customer service lines and for some pay-as-you go internet access services."

You cannot ascertain their motives for using these numbers and it looks silly to make such accusations. In many cases, they are simply the victim of a slick telecoms salesman who has assured them "calls are local rate", calls are just 5p/min", calls are 'lo-call' rate" and so forth, and has also offered them a 2p/min rebate as a sweetener.

They are unlikely to have been informed about the cost of calls from mobile phones. This is why Ofcom's "unbundled tariff" system is so important. They will be required to declare their number incurs a 7p/min Service Charge on top of the money the caller pays their own provider to connect and convey the call. This will be a wake up call to remaining users of these numbers.
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« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2014 at 11:38am by Ian G »  
 
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derrick
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Re: Carphone Warehouse
Reply #12 - Jun 26th, 2014 at 11:36am
 
Ian G wrote on Jun 26th, 2014 at 10:47am:
I would not have included the words "These are used by large and small businesses for sales, enquiry and customer service lines and for some pay-as-you go internet access services."


I did not include them as such, but quoted from the Ofcom leaflet link I included to show them the cost of these numbers, so they would see them any way.

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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #13 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 7:37am
 
My understanding is that CPC/Farnell is a B2B company. This means that their catalogues can give prices before VAT and that they can use whatever phone numbers they like for contact.

However, unlike their great rivals, RS Components, CPC/Farnell make it pretty easy for comsumers to deal with them. I'm not sure of the legal position when a company that's primarily B2B deals with a consumer. Do the full consumer aspects of Sale of Goods Act and Distance Selling regs still apply?
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derrick
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Re: CPC / Farnell
Reply #14 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 10:13am
 
allegro wrote on Jun 27th, 2014 at 7:37am:
My understanding is that CPC/Farnell is a B2B company. This means that their catalogues can give prices before VAT and that they can use whatever phone numbers they like for contact.

However, unlike their great rivals, RS Components, CPC/Farnell make it pretty easy for comsumers to deal with them. I'm not sure of the legal position when a company that's primarily B2B deals with a consumer. Do the full consumer aspects of Sale of Goods Act and Distance Selling regs still apply?



They deal with all, I have an account but only to make it easier to order stuff and I am not a business, before that I could order by phone or go in and buy as a consumer, I still have that choice so I would say that they would have to abide by the regulations.

To my knowledge there is nothing on their website or in their premises that states they are B2B, although if memory serves me correctly, and I am not 100% sure, I think prices on their "in store" price tickets show before and after VAT.


Actually looking at their "Terms of Purchase, http://cpc.farnell.com/terms-and-conditions (and similar wording on the back of their invoices), they do appear to not be B2B only

10. Distance selling regulations
If the Customer is buying as a 'consumer', as defined in The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000, the Customer may, provided the Customer has taken reasonable care of the Goods and returns the Goods complete, undamaged, and with their original packaging (including the Company's outer packaging), return the Goods and be repaid the price paid in respect of them within 7 working days (excluding Saturday and Sunday and any UK or Irish Bank Holiday) of their delivery. To return Goods on this basis, the Customer must notify the Company in writing and return the Goods, in their original packaging, within 7 working days from the day of delivery to....


Although they have got most of that wrong re returning in 7 days with original packaging etc, and the fact that they have not updated to the new DSR incorporated in the new Consumer Directive.


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« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2014 at 11:55am by derrick »  
 
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