SAYNOTO0870.COM - Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?

derrick

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #30 - May 18^th, 2015 at 8:57am

Ian01 wrote on May 17^th, 2015 at 6:01pm:

The running costs for an 080 number will in many cases be only a couple of pence per minute more than those for an 03 number.

Why is the caller charged more than calling 01/02/03 when calling an 080 number from a mobile when they pay nothing from a fixed line?

Surely it only costs the same as dialling any non revenue sharing number, and if there is any difference then the recipient is paying for that.

Why should the caller pay an exorbitant rate from a mobile when the call is "freephone" where the recipient is paying for the call?

Having said the above, from July 1st it should all be academic as all 080 numbers will be free to the caller from all phones.

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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #31 - May 18^th, 2015 at 9:21am

With 080 numbers the called party pays the non-geographic call-handling and call-forwarding costs (at much the same rate as for, e.g., 03 numbers) as well as a Call Origination Fee to compensate the caller's phone provider for carrying the call. This fee adequately covers call origination costs from landlines.

Mobile operators say the payment they receive is not large enough to cover the cost of origination from a mobile, hence they charge for the call. As mobile operators charge for calls to 080 numbers, I believe that for many years BT no longer pays a Call Origination Fee to mobile operators for calls to 080 numbers hosted by BT. Of course, many mobile operators charge excessively for calls to 080 numbers. If they had charged, say, 5p per minute I'm sure no-one would have created a fuss. The fact that some charge up to 40p per minute has forced Ofcom's hand. From 1 July 2015, they will have to make do with the income from a Call Origination Fee of around 3p or 4p per minute.

As an aside, the Call Origination Fee on calls to 080 numbers from BT payphones is now 72p per minute. Some charities, principally those using numbers starting 0808 80 and 116, have recently bartered an exemption.

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« Last Edit: May 19^th, 2015 at 9:03am by Ian01 »

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nicholas43

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #32 - May 18^th, 2015 at 11:17am

I still think that 0800 is an idea whose time is about to go. Nothing is ever really free, of course. When I call 0800, the organisation I am calling is paying - sometimes a lot. If it's Thames Water, they recharge the global cost of 0800 calls to all their customers, through their water bills. (So all their customers pay.) If it's a charity, the charity spends more on its phone bill, and less on its charitable objects.
I accept that a few people, at some times of day, are still paying per call for their phone calls to 01 02 and 03. But from 1 July 2015 they'd get a better deal, overall, if organizations said 'call us on 03, and ask us to call you back if you pay per call.' The honest pricing message for 0800 will be "there's no up-front service charge to you on your phone bill, but someone is paying x pence a minute, and that someone isn't our shareholders."

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Ian01 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 767	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #33 - May 25^th, 2015 at 10:32pm Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, the Phone Coop has two pages about the changes: http://www.thephone.coop/support/uk-calling-faq/ http://www.thephone.coop/support/changes-to-ngc-services/
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nicholas43

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #34 - May 26^th, 2015 at 3:42pm

There's only a few weeks to go. My betting is that, come 1 July,
(a) there will be lots of adverts, flyers, etc still around showing 084 and 087 numbers with the old misleading guff about "x p a minute from a BT landline", or the pre-historic "local call rate".
(b) there will be some adverts, flyers, etc that say "service charge y p a minute", but they will have got it wrong, and in fact z p a minute will be charged on the phone bill.
(c) people using PAYG mobiles will suffer random charges, and will have no idea what they have been charged for a given call, unless they check their balance before and immediately after each call.
OK, we can report miscreants to the ASA. But who do we claim refunds from? Our phone company, or the company that misled us about the service charge?

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2015 at 3:45pm by nicholas43 »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #35 - May 26^th, 2015 at 4:19pm

nicholas43 wrote on May 26^th, 2015 at 3:42pm:

There's only a few weeks to go. My betting is that, come 1 July…

I would have a bet that there will also be far worse mistakes, typos etc. - that is the nature of things.

We must remember that much of the good effect has already happened, with so many having already moved away from 084/087 numbers, because of what was going to happen and the regulatory changes that were made as a result of this.

I predict that the change to compliance and the continuing move away from 084/087 will, in some cases, be lamentably slow - but it will happen.

I do not believe that there is a direct legal liability in respect of a misrepresented Service Charge (i.e. the z vs. y situation), but the moral responsibility to put things right (as well as dealing with the ASA) is very strong. The fair telecoms campaign is strongly of the view that any understatement of a Service Charge must be corrected, with a settlement of the excess charge incurred as a minimum.

We have yet to see if the telcos will have problems with billing correctly. I understand there to be a general acceptance that (with only 80 different rates to deal with at this stage) it is achievable, and none have asked for a delay to the implementation date. Only time will tell the scale of the inevitable problems with switching over, and whether these will continue to become lasting difficulties. Obviously any error must be corrected.

The only things of which we can be sure are: a) this is the right thing to do, and b) it will not go perfectly smoothly.

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jrawle

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #36 - May 27^th, 2015 at 10:07am

Ian01 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2015 at 9:14pm:

Callers reasonably expect to pay their telephone provider for calls that they make. The Access Charge should NOT be zero.

BT has been regulated by Ofcom to effectively have a zero Access Charge on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers since 1996. That regulation has led to much of the confusion that has been seen with non-geo call costs. The NTS Retail Condition is being scrapped on 1 July 2015.

Calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers should NOT be inclusive. Only those callers who call those numbers should pay the Service Charge. Other callers should not be contributing to those costs.

I see you have posted on just about every thread on every site expressing the same view. The flaw in your argument is that it seems to assume that all call packages will fall in cost significantly from 1 July, as calls to these numbers will no longer be inclusive. I bet this is not the case. Packages will remain at the same prices, with the same huge increases each year, but will now offer less value for money.

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jrawle

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #37 - May 27^th, 2015 at 10:12am

I just received a text from EE about my legacy T-Mobile contract. Details of their prices are here:

http://www.ee.co.uk/t-mobile-ukcalling

I'm sure it initially said the access charge was 44p, but it's been quickly amended to add "per minute".

The interesting this is that my T-Mobile contract has always said my inclusive minutes include calls to 08 numbers. I asked at the time what that meant, and was told it included pretty much all 08 numbers, including freephone, 0844, etc. I never believed this, and as I didn't have anything in writing, I have never dared to call an 08 number, as I know there's little chance I would be able to claim a refund.

It'll be interesting to see whether they chance the description of my contract so that it no longer has the reference to 08 numbers.

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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #38 - May 27^th, 2015 at 10:37am

jrawle wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

The flaw in your argument is that it seems to assume that all call packages will fall in cost significantly from 1 July, as calls to these numbers will no longer be inclusive. I bet this is not the case. Packages will remain at the same prices, with the same huge increases each year, but will now offer less value for money.

When you call an 0845 number your provider has to pay out about 2p per minute to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 7p per minute (up to £4.20 per hour), the same as for 0843 and 0844 numbers.

When you call an 0870 number your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the 0870 number. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 13p per minute (up to £7.80 per hour), the same as for 0871 and 0872 numbers.

Given that 084 and 087 numbers are returning to usage for chargeable services paid for as the call is being made (recorded information lines including sports results and weather forecasts, chatlines, entertainment services including competitions and voting on a TV show, subscription-free conference-calling services, instant-access international dial-through services and paying for other small value goods and services, etc), only the caller who made that call should pay the Service Charge.

There's no particular reason why package prices should fall. When you call an 03 number, your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the number. With all the changes that have happened over the last year you're likely calling a lot more 03 numbers than you were before, ergo you are getting better value out of the monthly package fee. Additionally, for most people (those who use sayNOto0870 to look up alternative numbers are in the minority), the number of calls made to non-inclusive numbers such as 0844 and 0871 will have significantly reduced, and their overall monthy spend will also have reduced.

Value for money is measured by the number of minutes of inclusive calls you made, not by how many different prefixes are included.

Apparently, BT will continue with inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers after 1 July 2015. The caller will pay their line rental and less than a tenner for a call package. That package will allow each subscriber to make sufficient calls such as to cause BT to have to pay out up to £130 to the organisations that have been called. It is stunts such as this, with non-transparent call pricing, that push up everyone's bill.

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« Last Edit: May 28^th, 2015 at 3:19pm by Ian01 »

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nicholas43

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #39 - May 27^th, 2015 at 5:51pm

Ian, I completely agree with you that the current charging regime for 0845 and 0870 is mad. I also think that telcos' push to get everyone on packages is against customers' interests. Much better to pay a fair price per call, and decide whether each call is worth making, and how long to witter on for.
Packages (both for landlines and mobiles) result in huge cross-subsidies from little-old-ladies who make 3 calls a month to teenagers who use all their minutes.
However, given that telcos are fixated on selling packages, I would expect packages to include the access (but not the service) charge for calling at least 084, and possibly 087.

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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #40 - May 27^th, 2015 at 6:47pm

It is important for people to be on the right deal for their usage.

No-one should be paying e.g. 30p to 50p per minute for calls to numbers starting 01, 02, 03, 071-075 and 077-079 from a mobile phone. Such rates are a rip off.

There are plenty of mobile providers offering rates of 3p to 10p per minute.

Once you start making more than 50 to 100 minutes of calls in a month a call bundle for £5 usually offers better value. Clearly, people who make only 10 or 20 minutes of calls should not buy these types of deals.

As usage goes up, larger call bundles offer better value for money. As the price doubles, the allowances often go up by much more than double, sometimes five-fold.

Once text messaging, internet access and the option to purchase a handset over a period of many months is added the choices become more complex.

Consumers are bombarded by thousands of deals but with no explanation as to how to go about selecting the right one.

Simplification of the numbering plan and rationalisation of the associated call charges, especially the current changes, is going to help a lot, as is the ongoing migration from 084 and 087 numbers to 034 and 037 numbers by very many businesses and organisations.

From landlines, things are much simpler. Once you start making more than about half an hour of calls per month to 01, 02 and 03 numbers, purchasing an inclusive call bundle will usually offer better value for money. Once the bundle has been purchased you can make an unlimited number of such calls as long as each call is less than 60 minutes long.

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« Last Edit: May 27^th, 2015 at 7:22pm by Ian01 »

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Ian01 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 767	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #41 - May 27^th, 2015 at 9:15pm Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, John Lewis Home Phone has a page about the changes: https://www.johnlewisbroadband.com/ukcalling/
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jrawle

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #42 - May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm

Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 10:37am:

When you call an 0845 number your provider has to pay out about 2p per minute to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 7p per minute (up to £4.20 per hour), the same as for 0843 and 0844 enumbers.

When you call an 0870 number your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the 0870 number. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 13p per minute (up to £7.80 per hour), the same as for 0871 and 0872 numbers.

Why should customers care how much the company providing their service is paying its suppliers? Who thinks about how much the supermarket pays the freight company to bring its stock? What is important is the price the customer pays, and what goods or service they receive for that price. So that is all irrelevant.

Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 10:37am:

Given that 084 and 087 numbers are returning to usage for chargeable services paid for as the call is being made (recorded information lines including sports results and weather forecasts, chatlines, entertainment services including competitions and voting on a TV show, subscription-free conference-calling services, instant-access international dial-through services and paying for other small value goods and services, etc), only the caller who made that call should pay the Service Charge.

There's no particular reason why package prices should fall. When you call an 03 number, your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the number. With all the changes that have happened over the last year you're likely calling a lot more 03 numbers than you were before, ergo you are getting better value out of the monthly package fee. Additionally, for most people (those who use sayNOto0870 to look up alternative numbers are in the minority), the number of calls made to non-inclusive numbers such as 0844 and 0871 will have significantly reduced, and their overall monthy spend will also have reduced.

If there's no change in package price on 1 July, anyone who presently gets 0845 and 0870 calls included, but from 1 July does not, is worse off. At the moment, part of their package cost is paying for any 0845 or 0870 calls they make - so everyone is paying for those calls as you say. From July, the package prices don't change, so either everyone is still paying for those 0845 or 0870 calls, or else is represents a huge cost in the price of the package.

Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 10:37am:

Value for money is measured by the number of minutes of inclusive calls you made, not by how many different prefixes are included.

Presumably, if someone currently has a need to call certain numbers, but from 1 July they have to pay extra to call those numbers, while still paying the same package price, that's worse value for money. If a customer currently calls 0845 numbers and pays nothing extra, by your own definition, they will be receiving poorer value for money from July as they will be making fewer minutes of inclusive calls. The fact that 03 numbers or any others are included in irrelevant.

Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 10:37am:

Apparently, BT will continue with inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers after 1 July 2015. The caller will pay their line rental and less than a tenner for a call package. That package will allow each subscriber to make sufficient calls such as to cause BT to have to pay out up to £130 to the organisations that have been called. It is stunts such as this, with non-transparent call pricing, that push up everyone's bill.

I thought it was called competition. You choose the package that seems best value for you. Again, who cares how much BT have to pay out behind the scenes. I very much doubt they would do this if they were losing money.

The very reason I started using this site, many years ago now, was because line rental was increasing massively, while being offset by inclusive calls. That made calls such as 0870 that weren't inclusive a huge rip-off, as you effectively paid for them twice. When more NGNs became inclusive in recent years, I thought that was a huge improvement. These latest changes seem to be reversing that, which is a huge step backwards. I don't think there should be any revenue sharing numbers, except premium rate 09 numbers. All other numbers should be charged at a standard rate (inclusive or not, depending on your package). Also, reasonably priced packages that didn't include calls, but where the calls weren't a rip-off, would also be welcome.

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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #43 - May 28^th, 2015 at 3:48pm

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

Why should customers care how much the company providing their service is paying its suppliers? Who thinks about how much the supermarket pays the freight company to bring its stock? What is important is the price the customer pays, and what goods or service they receive for that price. So that is all irrelevant.

This is not at all about the phone service "paying its supplier". The essential point exposed by Clear Call Rates for Everyone is that when you call an 084, 087, 09 or 118 number you are paying two separate suppliers for two separate services. One is the payment to your telephone provider to simply connect and convey the call. The other is the payment to a third party for a chargeable service such as a weather forecast, sports results, horoscope, entry fee for a competition, payment to a conference call or dial through service, or a donation to a charity. In all cases your telephone provider is simply acting as an agent in collecting the revenue and passing it on. Why should other callers be asked to contribute to this onwards payment?

The changes also expose those who use these numbers and benefit from imposing a Service Charge but are not offering any sort of chargeable service. Customer service and other such lines are no longer allowed to use these types of numbers.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

If there's no change in package price on 1 July, anyone who presently gets 0845 and 0870 calls included, but from 1 July does not, is worse off.

In previous years, some people were able to call HMRC and DWP using inclusive calls to 0845 numbers from their landline. The majority of people, especially those using a mobile phone, had to pay for the calls. Those organisations now use 0300 and 0345 numbers and the new 03 numbers are inclusive for far more people. Every landline and mobile provider has deals with inclusive calls to 03 numbers.

Calls to 0844 and 0871 numbers are not inclusive. A large number of those users have recently migrated to 03 numbers and calls to these organisations are now inclusive on landlines and on mobiles.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

At the moment, part of their package cost is paying for any 0845 or 0870 calls they make - so everyone is paying for those calls as you say. From July, the package prices don't change, so either everyone is still paying for those 0845 or 0870 calls, or else it represents a huge cost in the price of the package.

The termination rates for 0870 numbers are currently about 35p per hour but when declared as a Service Charge will increase to up to £7.80 per hour. The caller that made the call should pay the Service Charge, just as they do for 0871 and 0872 numbers. Likewise for 0845 (which will increase to up to £4.20 per hour) vs. 0844 and 0843.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

I thought it was called competition. You choose the package that seems best value for you. Again, who cares how much BT have to pay out behind the scenes. I very much doubt they would do this if they were losing money.

Calls to 084 numbers, including 0845 numbers, incur a Service Charge of up to 7p per minute. Calls to 087 numbers, including 0870 numbers, incur a Service Charge of up to 13p per minute. You have to ask why BT wants to include calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers but will not include other 084 and 087 numbers with the same level of Service Charge.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

When more NGNs became inclusive in recent years, I thought that was a huge improvement.

The inclusion of calls to 0845 numbers involves a cynical deception of callers, one which Clear Call Rates for Everyone now reveals.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

These latest changes seem to be reversing that, which is a huge step backwards.

The changes are a big step forwards. They make those who are in receipt of a financial benefit own up to that fact and force them to reconsider their position. They can no longer hide behind "Calls cost X from a BT line" as their excuse.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

I don't think there should be any revenue sharing numbers, except premium rate 09 numbers.

Given the enormous exodus of users from the 084 and 087 ranges over the last year or so, that may well be the end effect in a few years time.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 1:50pm:

All other numbers should be charged at a standard rate (inclusive or not, depending on your package). Also, reasonably priced packages that didn't include calls, but where the calls weren't a rip-off, would also be welcome.

Numbers where only the caller's telecoms company is being paid (01, 02, 03, 071-075, 077-079) should be inclusive. Numbers where a third party content supplier or service is also being paid should not be inclusive.

When 0845 numbers were being used by essential government services and while the additional charge was 2p per minute, maybe there was a case for the additional charges to be spread across all BT subscribers. Many other providers, especially mobile operators, were not prepared to do this. Now that these services use 03 numbers there is no such need and there are no additional charged imposed on callers. The call recipient pays the non-geographic call handling and call forwarding costs.

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« Last Edit: May 30^th, 2015 at 7:05am by Ian01 »

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nicholas43 Junior Member Offline Posts: 92	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #44 - May 30^th, 2015 at 6:56am Have any of the 118 sharks announced their "service" charge? I'm looking forward to the adverts with the running idiots displaying (for example) 118 xyz £4.00 a minute plus your access charge .
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