SAYNOTO0870.COM - BT reducing line rental

SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #45 - Nov 5^th, 2017 at 12:04pm

bazzerfewi wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 8:29am:

… starting a thread in regard to the benefit of using mobiles over landlines I am all for that. …

I look forward to reading your opening post.

I will also be interested to hear your views in relation to those with wire or fibre broadband (who are outside the scope of this thread) or cable. They are already paying rental on a line that can carry voice telephony.

So far as consumers are concerned, the fair telecoms campaign seeks only to inform, never to convince people to follow a course of action that it has decided is best for them. We have been very successful in convincing many businesses to stop using 084/087 numbers, by various means. We have sadly not (yet) been successful in persuading BT to stop treating 0870/0845 numbers as if they were in some way "ordinary".

This website, by its very name, invites consumers to avoid 087 and 084 numbers. Perhaps you need to register SayNoToLandlines.com, and invite the mobile companies to support it by advertising.

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Dave

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #46 - Nov 5^th, 2017 at 1:07pm

bazzerfewi wrote on Nov 4^th, 2017 at 10:41pm:

[…] IF ONLY MORE PEOPLE REALISED THIS THEY WOULD COLLECTIVELY SAVE MILLIONS.

Is this really true or, like when one squeezes a balloon, would the savings pop out in the form of charges elsewhere…?

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 3:53am:

Home Phone Saver 2020 costs £21.99 per month, but offers the following array of additional benefits – with its price guaranteed as fixed until 1 January 2020, with the possibility of it extending beyond that date (as other similar offers have).

All of the following, in addition to line rental are included in Home Phone Saver 2020. Prices are shown as at 7 Jan 2018, or as projected if the new price is not yet known (*). These prices may be expected to increase further before January 2020.

[…]
BT Privacy with Caller Display (£1.85 per month, although inclusive on some deals).
[…]

I think I am right in saying that caller display is included for free with all (or at least the vast majority of) services when under contract, as this is one of the carrots BT uses to entice subscribers into contracts, or else beat them with the stick of the monthly charge when they're not.

Caller display will have to be made available by CPs at no extra charge from 1 October 2018. Therefore, in all practical sense, all signing up to a BT contract from now onwards will have caller display provided at no extra cost indefinitely.

I accept that this may actually be a little point for which a response of the length of two paragraphs may be seen as a little unjustified – now three paragraphs, with this paragraph saying that it might not be worthy of the two! Grin

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 3:53am:

Noting recent contributions to this thread, I think we can say that those who get very little benefit from very little use of their landline should simply rip it out and get a mobile! We can then stop wasting our time talking about them in this thread and perhaps open another to discuss mobiles.

The implication of getting very little benefit from a product implies that it might be a wise idea to not buy it any more. However, many people who have a landline for voice service only (which is the topic of this thread) do get a benefit – and this is because it is a landline. The elderly typically fall into this group, and they most certainly do value their landline because they would never dream of having a mobile phone, or at least a mobile as sole mode of communication.

It is only a waste of time talking about landlines for those who don't want them. With this thread being about people who have a landline for voice use only, that includes those actually want one.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

I will also be interested to hear your views in relation to those with wire or fibre broadband (who are outside the scope of this thread) or cable. They are already paying rental on a line that can carry voice telephony.

The encouragement of naked broadband (a line with broadband and no voice) would seem to be the answer.

But then, isn't the voice market subsidising the broadband market anyway? So removing voice would reduce the price a bit but not a lot. The cost of the local loop would still have to be paid for (although to differing degrees with fibre). Voice equipment in exchanges would become idle to greater tendency.

The balance would tip more from PSTN voice telephony, to VoIP and mobile. This is what the landline providers are defending by not offering naked broadband.

I think the whole saga of this thread is rooted in the providers offsetting costs of broadband on to non-broadband users. Ofcom's position implies its agreement, even though its review may have been compartmentalised, by looking solely at voice-only subscribers. This implication comes from fact that the regulator has chosen not to seek for an outcome of line rental being reduced for all landline users.

So, to return to the first statement in this posting, could there really be savings made by having a landline for broadband only (were it widely available) or mobile only? Or are we (forever?) chasing a utopian 'saving'?

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bazzerfewi

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #47 - Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:08pm

A great deal to take in for the likes of me!

But if my understanding is correct the solution is to discard of the land line and use the mobile as a viable alternative with the correct package.

As suggested in the earlier thread it may take some time to convince (low use) callers to discard their landline but for every user that does it will be a small victory.

I recall back in the day when we were attempting to convince both businesses and callers not to use 0870 numbers, that was an up hill struggle with slow progress but it worked in the end.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #48 - Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:22pm

My reference to "BT Privacy with Caller Display" was only for completeness, and qualified by the "inclusive on some deals" comment.

Dave wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 1:07pm:

… all signing up to a BT contract from now onwards will have caller display provided at no extra cost indefinitely.

As I read the revised General Conditions, charging for provision of CLI data will be simply prohibited with effect from 1 October 2018. This will apply to all customers, not just those said to be "under contract" begun at any particular time.

There is, of course, no requirement, nor offer, to provide the equipment to display the CLI data. This will perhaps become an issue in time to come, if and when CLI text data starts to become more significant. More on this will be published on @fairtelecoms in time to come.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #49 - Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:54pm

bazzerfewi wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:08pm:

… the solution is to discard of the land line and use the mobile as a viable alternative with the correct package.

That solution is the obvious conclusion to arguments that you were presenting. I understood that you agreed.

Other contributors, including myself, do not share your belief that a lot of people are paying for a landline, without broadband, but not using it much, because they are using their mobile phones to make calls. There may be some who need to be told that they are wasting their money, but one risks being rather patronising by pointing out something so obvious.

The focus of this thread has been on those who benefit from having a landline without broadband, who will be covered by the BT reduction in line rental. We have been addressing the tricky issue of how best to help them understand how to secure the best deal for their needs.

The case of those who would be best advised to cease their landline, in favour of use of a mobile, is an interesting topic for another thread. It does however have to be pointed out that this option is not available to those with broadband or cable TV. This then has opened up another line of discussion, which is tangentially relevant because it relates to the reason behind the forced BT move, although it is a big topic in its own right and does not apply only to BT.

Perhaps a moderator could steer us.

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bazzerfewi

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #50 - Nov 5^th, 2017 at 4:09pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 12:51pm:

bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 10:45am:

a number of us have cancelled the calls unlimited because it is more expensive as most of our calls are made via our mobiles

If your pattern of BT landline calling is below that equivalent to the examples given in our briefing, then you are indeed doing the right thing. I do however hope that you are choosing the correct inclusive calls plan on your mobile, because the same situation exists with both contract and PAYG mobile tariffs.

The cost of inclusive plans is commonly presented without a parallel indication of the alternative Penalty Charge.

Our fear, indeed our strong suspicion, is that many fail to recognise the high level of the Penalty Charges and are misled by statements such as
"if you just love to chat on your home phone day and night, go for our anytime plan".

There may be those with very low usage who choose the unlimited anytime plan in error, but we feel that this exaggeration of the calling pattern necessary to justify subscription to the plan represents under-, rather than over-, selling, leading to far too many Penalty Charges being incurred.

I pay £5.00 a month for my mobile package and I never exceed my 250 minute or exceed data and web allowance. For callers that do not exceed these limit it is more economical than a land line.

Edit: Quote at top amended - Dave

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« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2017 at 7:23pm by Dave »

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Dave

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #51 - Nov 6^th, 2017 at 5:22pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:22pm:

Dave wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 1:07pm:

… all signing up to a BT contract from now onwards will have caller display provided at no extra cost indefinitely.

As I read the revised General Conditions, charging for provision of CLI data will be simply prohibited with effect from 1 October 2018. This will apply to all customers, not just those said to be "under contract" begun at any particular time.

The point wasn't to suggest that the requirement of the GCs to offer caller display for free applies to "under contract" customers only.

As this discussion is about the value offered by each package as against the cost I think that inclusive caller display should be regarded as the default, rather than the exception. Should out-of-contract customers wish to get better value then they can opt in (and stop paying the £1.85).

That thought having occurred to me, I then realised that anyone who subscribes to or renews a contract from now will get inclusive caller display but will never ever pay the £1.85 once the contract has come to an end (and not renewed), unlike those who signed up before 1 October 2017 (for 12 month contracts). Then it occurred to me that this tends to strengthen my assertion that the general rule is free caller display with £1.85 the exception (a point I alluded to).

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Dave

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #52 - Nov 6^th, 2017 at 5:51pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:54pm:

The focus of this thread has been on those who benefit from having a landline without broadband, who will be covered by the BT reduction in line rental. We have been addressing the tricky issue of how best to help them understand how to secure the best deal for their needs.

The case of those who would be best advised to cease their landline, in favour of use of a mobile, is an interesting topic for another thread. It does however have to be pointed out that this option is not available to those with broadband or cable TV. This then has opened up another line of discussion, which is tangentially relevant because it relates to the reason behind the forced BT move, although it is a big topic in its own right and does not apply only to BT.

Perhaps a moderator could steer us.

I make this post as Moderator.

If we think – at the outset, before we start the thread – that the subject will be broad, as to meander giving up landline in favour of mobile and the implications for landline-broadband users, then I think it should be started on that basis, which means its title must encompass those areas, rather than having it narrow and to one sector. Gosh, that's a long sentence. Definitely won't be winning any awards from the Plain English lobby for that one.

I'm inclined to say: start the thread in the Geographical Numbers Chat section rather than the Call Providers one as it's not about one provider specifically. If anyone has any thoughts, particularly in favour of it being the other way, then post comment.

Put a link to the new thread at the end of this one and a link to this thread from the inaugural posting in the new thread.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #53 - Nov 6^th, 2017 at 6:07pm

We have having great fun with a very minor issue (by comparison with other points being discussed).

Dave wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 5:22pm:

… anyone who subscribes to or renews a contract from now will get inclusive caller display but will never ever pay the £1.85 once the contract has come to an end (and not renewed), unlike those who signed up before 1 October 2017 (for 12 month contracts).

That assumes that BT waits until the last moment before withdrawing this charge.

A key point in relation to CLI, as a means of identifying callers before accepting a call - which currently only applies to numbers that one recognises, was covered by my comment -

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 5^th, 2017 at 2:22pm:

There is, of course, no requirement, nor offer, to provide the equipment to display the CLI data. This will perhaps become an issue in time to come, if and when CLI text data starts to become more significant. More on this will be published on @fairtelecoms in time to come.

The issue of CLI text is however a matter for discussion in another thread.

There is quite enough going on in relation to nuisance calls at present. This issue will however come up when the matter of applying more sense to CLI is raised in connection with the other obligations on telcos that will apply from 1 October 2018.

In response to Reply #52 - I have views on the other issues raised, as on many issues related to

fair telecoms

, and will be pleased to respond, should any member of this forum wish to open up discussion on them.

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2017 at 6:15pm by SilentCallsVictim »

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CJT-80

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #54 - Nov 6^th, 2017 at 8:04pm

Dave wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 5:51pm:

I make this post as Moderator.

If we think – at the outset, before we start the thread – that the subject will be broad, as to meander giving up landline in favour of mobile and the implications for landline-broadband users, then I think it should be started on that basis, which means its title must encompass those areas, rather than having it narrow and to one sector. Gosh, that's a long sentence. Definitely won't be winning any awards from the Plain English lobby for that one.

I'm inclined to say: start the thread in the Geographical Numbers Chat section rather than the Call Providers one as it's not about one provider specifically. If anyone has any thoughts, particularly in favour of it being the other way, then post comment.

I agree about it being in that location, and I also speak as a Moderator. Is anyone happy to start a thread, or any suggestions for a suitable title? Maybe "Is it worth keeping a landline?"

Please feel free to comment.

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Regards,

CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com

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